Project name: Overtime Markets
Author name and contact info: padzank, can be contacted through Telegram (@padzank) or Discord (padzank# 2734 ).
I understand that I will be required to provide additional KYC information to the Optimism Foundation to receive this grant: Yes
L 2 recipient address: 0 x 489863 b 61 C 625 a 15 C 74 FB 4 C 21486 baCb 4 A 3937 AB
Grant category: Governance Fund Phase 1
**Is this proposal applicable to a specific committee?:**DeFi committee
Project description (please explain how your project works):
Overtime Markets is a novel and unique Sports Markets AMM product that is built on top of the Thales core architecture powered by Chainlink Sports Feeds, and is currently exclusive to the Optimism network. It provides a world’s first successful attempt of permissionless, liquid and fully on-chain Sports Markets, where users can trade on tokenized outcomes of world’s most popular sports leagues without any limitations. It utilizes the Thales Protocol core architecture to offer on-demand liquidity to markets revolving around sports events with mutually exclusive outcomes in the likes of HOME WIN, AWAY WIN or DRAW. Each outcome is represented by ERC 20 tokens which are available for purchase from the Sports AMM that prices these tokens based on Chainlink provided pre-game odds. Only one type of these positional tokens is able to redeem the sUSD collateral in 1 : 1 ratio from the contract representing the individual game, based on the post-game results that are also fed by the Chainlink oracle directly to the smart contract.
1600 × 836 281 KB
Launched exclusively to Optimism close to the beginning of August 2022 , Overtime Markets supported MLS Soccer League events and MLB Baseball League events “off the bat” from the Chainlink oracle provider. Summer being an off-season for most major global sports events and leagues, it came as beneficial to Overtime to do initial public beta testing during these times of limited markets until the second half of August, when all the popular sports leagues started. Subsequently to successful launch and the positioning working flawlessly as intended, the offering on Overtime increased to all major European Soccer leagues and UFC fighting events. During this same time period, limited and experimental short term OP+THALES token subsidies were put in place, provided from the Thales Treasury (Phase 0 allocation), towards Overtime traders. Current emissions are around 4 , 000 of each tokens per week and, even though they are low in comparison, they are already quite effective towards garnering new attention towards Overtime and significantly increasing the growth metrics.
In approximately two month’s time since launch to date, Overtime markets drove ~$ 1 . 05 M sUSD of trade volume and ~ 2 . 1 M sUSD of notional volume on limited off-season sports offerings. It accomplished this with 943 unique users that executed a total of 8 , 609 trades. Currently, there are on average ~ 60 unique daily traders and the current average daily txn count on Overtime is around ~ 200 .
Upcoming Major Milestones:
On-chain Parlay AMM - Parlays are a common betting framework that allows for cumulative series of positions in which potential winnings accruing from each chained position are used as a stake for further positions, effectively offering leveraged trading on Overtime. If only one position from the chain is a loss, the entire chain collapses as a loss. Overtime On-chain Parlays execution plan is already in the codebase building stage by using the already deployed blueprint found in the TIP- 72 :Parlay AMM Governance Proposal Draft. Since it allows for leveraged positions on Overtime, Parlays have a massive potential to exponentially increase daily volume and bring in more users that are willing to participate in higher risk but also higher reward positions.
Aggregated Sports Data Feeds - Current Chainlink provided on-chain Sports Data required for Overtime operation are reliant on a single sports data provider called The Rundown. Since The Rundown is in-itself a API aggregator, it still represents a single point of failure on-chain. To avoid the centralization risk of using a single on-chain data provider, Chainlink and Overtime are working together towards providing a solution that involves a framework of Sports Data Aggregation that will have multiple sources of aggregated Sports Data on-chain providing a much more robust and decentralized solution that will provide a good bedrock for future scalability efforts.
Expanded Sports Offerings - With new on-chain sports data feeds emerging constantly, Overtime offering will also grow with it in tandem. One of the most popular requests are NBA games, which will be supported on Overtime as soon as the league starts. It is also communicated from our on-chain data providers that they are also planning to push for feeds relevant for Player Props offerings across major sports, which are also one of the most popular requests. Overtime is also well under way of feasibility testing the Racing Sports offerings from a Chainlink node provider specialized for those types of positions. The first addition of this type is most likely to be Formula 1 Grand Prix H 2 H Matchups. Additionally, major Esports events are also one of the most requested features which Overtime is actively working on with the on-chain data providers.
Project links:
Website: Overtime Markets
Twitter: https://twitter.com/OvertimeMarkets
Discord/Discourse/Community: Discord
Please include all other relevant links below: Overtime Documentation, Analytics Dashboard
Additional team member info (please link):
Core Contributors Discord/Telegram:
Tech lead - Danijel | Thales# 0627 / @DanThales
Marketing Lead - Red | Thales# 3636 / @Red_Thales
Please link to any previous projects the team has meaningfully contributed to: Thales
Relevant usage metrics (TVL, transactions, volume, unique addresses, etc. Optimism metrics preferred; please link to public sources such as Dune Analytics, etc.):
Metrics achieved in 65 days since launch on Optimism:
943 unique traders
8 , 609 total trades
above 200 txns per day
15 supported sports leagues and rising
$ 1 , 041 , 389 Settled Volume
$ 2 . 1 M Notional Volume
above 60 Unique Daily Users on average incl. daily new users
Overtime Markets Dune Dashboard
Competitors, peers, or similar projects (please link):
None that we are aware of.
Is/will this project be open sourced?
Yes, Overtime Markets are Open-Sourced and can be found in this repository.
Optimism native?:
Yes. Overtime Markets are exclusive to the Optimism Network only.
Ecosystem Value Proposition:
What is the problem statement this proposal hopes to solve for the Optimism ecosystem?
Demand for a product with a clear market fit outside of a Defi niche, huge worldwide addressable market, with massive potential for onboarding people into Optimism and web 3 .
How does your proposal offer a value proposition solving the above problem?
Overtime Markets represent a world’s first successful attempt of permissionless, liquid and fully on-chain Sports Markets, where users can trade on tokenized outcomes of world’s most popular sports leagues without any limitations.
Why will this solution be a source of growth for the Optimism ecosystem?
Overtime Markets have the potential to be the catalyst that draws in a much wider audience directly to the Optimism network, that are not necessarily crypto native users. Sports Positioning is a huge global market and Overtime is a clear market fit because of the limitless and borderless nature of the Ethereum network that is also inherited into the Optimism network. Every “moving part” of Overtime Markets is run by smart contracts and Chainlink data feeds without any manual inputs, and anyone with an Ethereum wallet can freely participate in positioning on any popular sports events via this product.
Has your project previously applied for an OP grant? No, Overtime did not apply for an exclusive grant.
Number of OP tokens requested: 300 , 000 OP
Did the project apply for or receive OP tokens through the Foundation Partner Fund?: No
If OP tokens were requested from the Foundation Partner Fund, what was the amount?: N/A
How much will your project match in co-incentives? (not required but recommended, when applicable):
Project with match co-incentives with THALES tokens to a certain degree that will be determined by the governance structure.
How will the OP tokens be distributed?
70 % as incentives in form of Fee Rebates to create an inviting environment to help with the Overtime growth and user increase.
30 % as targeted events to help user growth of new league and sport integrations. The FIFA world cup would be the first recipient of the sports targeted distribution and we are planning 20 k to 50 k OP for the FIFA tournament. We are wanting to promote this tournament with markets that would be incentivized based on expected user growth.
Over what period of time will the tokens be distributed for each initiative?
Approximate planned distribution is to last for 6 months.
Please list the milestones/KPIs you expect to achieve for each initiative, considering how each relates to incentivizing sustainable usage and liquidity on Optimism.
The main KPI with Fee Rebates is to bootstrap unique user acquisition, exposure and thus an increase in organic trading activity. Fee rebates introduction should see an increase in daily new users, as well as an increase in total trades. We are expecting a 20 to 40 % increase in these numbers with fee rebates activated.
KPI on the targeted incentives will be measurable through Dune Analytic where incentivised leagues and matches would expect to see a 30 to 50 % increase in volume after implementation.
We are hoping to reach a total volume of $ 3 , 000 , 000 by the end of incentives.
Why will incentivized users and liquidity on Optimism remain after incentives dry up?
The key to Overtime Markets success relies on getting sufficient attention and making it accessible to new users. The initial bootstrap of Fee Rebates has a goal of drawing attention to the product and we are certain that users will remain when it becomes evident that Overtime provides the worlds best odds in Sports Positioning exactly because of the lack of middleman fees inherited from the nature of the Ethereum Network. Overtime Markets presents a solution to global permissionless accessibility towards Sports Markets and can be a floodgate of real life adoption and growth of the entire Optimism network.
Please provide any additional information that will facilitate accountability:(smart contracts addresses relevant to the proposal, relevant organisational wallet addresses, etc.)
Relevant Smart Contracts:
SportPositionalMarketManager
SportPositionalMarketFactory
SportPositionalMarketMastercopy
SportPositionMastercopy
SportsAMM
SportPositionalMarketData
GamesQueue
GamesQueueImplementation
TherundownConsumer
Current Chainlink Data Providers:
The Rundown
Apex 146
The project "Overtime Markets 20" is a decentralized sports prediction market built on the Optimism network. It allows users to trade on tokenized outcomes of popular sports leagues using ERC20 tokens priced by Chainlink-provided pre-game odds. The platform aims to expand its offerings, including on-chain parlay AMM, aggregated sports data feeds, and support for new sports leagues like NBA and Esports. Overtime Markets achieved significant trade and notional volumes within two months of launch on Optimism. The proposal aims to introduce incentivized initiatives to boost user growth and liquidity on Optimism, targeting sustained usage beyond the incentive period.
Project name: Overtime Markets 20 Author name and contact info: padzank, can be contacted through…
Project name: Overtime Markets 20 Author name and contact info: padzank, can be contacted through Telegram (@padzank) or Discord (padzank# 2734 ). I understand that I will be required to provide additional KYC information to the Optimism Foundation to receive this grant: Yes L 2 recipient address: 0 x 489863 b 61 C 625 a 15 C 74 FB 4 C 21486 baCb 4 A 3937 AB Grant category: Governance Fund Phase 1 **Is this proposal applicable to a specific committee?:**DeFi committee Project description (please explain how your project works): Overtime Markets 20 is a novel and unique Sports Markets AMM 2 product that is built on top of the Thales core architecture powered by Chainlink Sports Feeds 1 , and is currently exclusive to the Optimism network. It provides a world’s first successful attempt of permissionless, liquid and fully on-chain Sports Markets, where users can trade on tokenized outcomes of world’s most popular sports leagues without any limitations. It utilizes the Thales Protocol core architecture to offer on-demand liquidity to markets revolving around sports events with mutually exclusive outcomes in the likes of HOME WIN, AWAY WIN or DRAW. Each outcome is represented by ERC 20 tokens which are available for purchase from the Sports AMM that prices these tokens based on Chainlink provided pre-game odds. Only one type of these positional tokens is able to redeem the sUSD collateral in 1 : 1 ratio from the contract representing the individual game, based on the post-game results that are also fed by the Chainlink oracle directly to the smart contract. 1600 × 836 281 KB Launched exclusively to Optimism close to the beginning of August 2022 , Overtime Markets supported MLS Soccer League events and MLB Baseball League events “off the bat” from the Chainlink oracle provider. Summer being an off-season for most major global sports events and leagues, it came as beneficial to Overtime to do initial public beta testing during these times of limited markets until the second half of August, when all the popular sports leagues started. Subsequently to successful launch and the positioning working flawlessly as intended, the offering on Overtime increased to all major European Soccer leagues and UFC fighting events. During this same time period, limited and experimental short term OP+THALES token subsidies were put in place, provided from the Thales Treasury (Phase 0 allocation), towards Overtime traders. Current emissions are around 4 , 000 of each tokens per week and, even though they are low in comparison, they are already quite effective towards garnering new attention towards Overtime and significantly increasing the growth metrics. In approximately two month’s time since launch to date, Overtime markets drove ~$ 1 . 05 M sUSD of trade volume and ~ 2 . 1 M sUSD of notional volume on limited off-season sports offerings. It accomplished this with 943 unique users that executed a total of 8 , 609 trades. Currently, there are on average ~ 60 unique daily traders and the current average daily txn count on Overtime is around ~ 200 . Upcoming Major Milestones: On-chain Parlay AMM - Parlays are a common betting framework that allows for cumulative series of positions in which potential winnings accruing from each chained position are used as a stake for further positions, effectively offering leveraged trading on Overtime. If only one position from the chain is a loss, the entire chain collapses as a loss. Overtime On-chain Parlays execution plan is already in the codebase building stage by using the already deployed blueprint found in the TIP- 72 :Parlay AMM 1 Governance Proposal Draft. Since it allows for leveraged positions on Overtime, Parlays have a massive potential to exponentially increase daily volume and bring in more users that are willing to participate in higher risk but also higher reward positions. Aggregated Sports Data Feeds - Current Chainlink provided on-chain Sports Data required for Overtime operation are reliant on a single sports data provider called The Rundown. Since The Rundown is in-itself a API aggregator, it still represents a single point of failure on-chain. To avoid the centralization risk of using a single on-chain data provider, Chainlink and Overtime are working together towards providing a solution that involves a framework of Sports Data Aggregation that will have multiple sources of aggregated Sports Data on-chain providing a much more robust and decentralized solution that will provide a good bedrock for future scalability efforts. Expanded Sports Offerings - With new on-chain sports data feeds emerging constantly, Overtime offering will also grow with it in tandem. One of the most popular requests are NBA games, which will be supported on Overtime as soon as the league starts. It is also communicated from our on-chain data providers that they are also planning to push for feeds relevant for Player Props offerings across major sports, which are also one of the most popular requests. Overtime is also well under way of feasibility testing the Racing Sports offerings from a Chainlink node provider specialized for those types of positions. The first addition of this type is most likely to be Formula 1 Grand Prix H 2 H Matchups. Additionally, major Esports events are also one of the most requested features which Overtime is actively working on with the on-chain data providers. Project links: Website: Overtime Markets 17 Twitter: https://twitter.com/OvertimeMarkets 7 Discord/Discourse/Community: Discord Please include all other relevant links below: Overtime Documentation 2 , Analytics Dashboard 8 Additional team member info (please link): Core Contributors Discord/Telegram: Tech lead - Danijel | Thales# 0627 / @DanThales Marketing Lead - Red | Thales# 3636 / @Red_Thales Please link to any previous projects the team has meaningfully contributed to: Thales 3 Relevant usage metrics (TVL, transactions, volume, unique addresses, etc. Optimism metrics preferred; please link to public sources such as Dune Analytics, etc.): Metrics achieved in 65 days since launch on Optimism: 943 unique traders 8 , 609 total trades above 200 txns per day 15 supported sports leagues and rising $ 1 , 041 , 389 Settled Volume $ 2 . 1 M Notional Volume above 60 Unique Daily Users on average incl. daily new users Overtime Markets Dune Dashboard 8 Competitors, peers, or similar projects (please link): None that we are aware of. Is/will this project be open sourced? Yes, Overtime Markets are Open-Sourced and can be found in this repository. 3 Optimism native?: Yes. Overtime Markets are exclusive to the Optimism Network only. Ecosystem Value Proposition: What is the problem statement this proposal hopes to solve for the Optimism ecosystem? Demand for a product with a clear market fit outside of a Defi niche, huge worldwide addressable market, with massive potential for onboarding people into Optimism and web 3 . How does your proposal offer a value proposition solving the above problem? Overtime Markets represent a world’s first successful attempt of permissionless, liquid and fully on-chain Sports Markets, where users can trade on tokenized outcomes of world’s most popular sports leagues without any limitations. Why will this solution be a source of growth for the Optimism ecosystem? Overtime Markets have the potential to be the catalyst that draws in a much wider audience directly to the Optimism network, that are not necessarily crypto native users. Sports Positioning is a huge global market and Overtime is a clear market fit because of the limitless and borderless nature of the Ethereum network that is also inherited into the Optimism network. Every “moving part” of Overtime Markets is run by smart contracts and Chainlink data feeds without any manual inputs, and anyone with an Ethereum wallet can freely participate in positioning on any popular sports events via this product. Has your project previously applied for an OP grant? No, Overtime did not apply for an exclusive grant. Number of OP tokens requested: 300 , 000 OP Did the project apply for or receive OP tokens through the Foundation Partner Fund?: No If OP tokens were requested from the Foundation Partner Fund, what was the amount?: N/A How much will your project match in co-incentives? (not required but recommended, when applicable): Project with match co-incentives with THALES tokens to a certain degree that will be determined by the governance structure. How will the OP tokens be distributed? 70 % as incentives in form of Fee Rebates to create an inviting environment to help with the Overtime growth and user increase. 30 % as targeted events to help user growth of new league and sport integrations. The FIFA world cup would be the first recipient of the sports targeted distribution and we are planning 20 k to 50 k OP for the FIFA tournament. We are wanting to promote this tournament with markets that would be incentivized based on expected user growth. Over what period of time will the tokens be distributed for each initiative? Approximate planned distribution is to last for 6 months. Please list the milestones/KPIs you expect to achieve for each initiative, considering how each relates to incentivizing sustainable usage and liquidity on Optimism. The main KPI with Fee Rebates is to bootstrap unique user acquisition, exposure and thus an increase in organic trading activity. Fee rebates introduction should see an increase in daily new users, as well as an increase in total trades. We are expecting a 20 to 40 % increase in these numbers with fee rebates activated. KPI on the targeted incentives will be measurable through Dune Analytic where incentivised leagues and matches would expect to see a 30 to 50 % increase in volume after implementation. We are hoping to reach a total volume of $ 3 , 000 , 000 by the end of incentives. Why will incentivized users and liquidity on Optimism remain after incentives dry up? The key to Overtime Markets success relies on getting sufficient attention and making it accessible to new users. The initial bootstrap of Fee Rebates has a goal of drawing attention to the product and we are certain that users will remain when it becomes evident that Overtime provides the worlds best odds in Sports Positioning exactly because of the lack of middleman fees inherited from the nature of the Ethereum Network. Overtime Markets presents a solution to global permissionless accessibility towards Sports Markets and can be a floodgate of real life adoption and growth of the entire Optimism network. Please provide any additional information that will facilitate accountability:(smart contracts addresses relevant to the proposal, relevant organisational wallet addresses, etc.) Relevant Smart Contracts: SportPositionalMarketManager SportPositionalMarketFactory SportPositionalMarketMastercopy SportPositionMastercopy SportsAMM SportPositionalMarketData GamesQueue GamesQueueImplementation TherundownConsumer Current Chainlink Data Providers: The Rundown Apex 146
Overtime has been my favorite and most actively used OP project. Im really looking forward to thei…
Overtime has been my favorite and most actively used OP project. Im really looking forward to their continued development on other markets like world cup and college basketball, as well as expanding to parlays.
I strongly support Overtime Markets and their request for OP funds. Overtime, a part of Thales, wil…
I strongly support Overtime Markets and their request for OP funds. Overtime, a part of Thales, will be one of the major catalysts to not only brings users to Optimism, but to onboard the next generation to web 3 .
The Thales team has been Optimism supporters from day 1 , and one of the earliest protocols on the chain. Now with the development of a Sports AMM, they are able to attract an entirely new and massive set of potential new users. The sports positioning market is absolutely massive and rapidly growing. Platforms like DraftKings bring in over $ 1 B of revenue annually, and they don’t have the advantages of being on-chain like Overtime. Sports positioners search high and low for the best odds and Overtime Markets has already proven to be a leader in this area, as predicted… Being an on-chain Sports AMM allows for relatively low overhead cost by relying on smart contracts and much less overhead than a traditional web 2 book. This allows for some of the most competitive odds out there. The best odds bring bring in massive amounts of volume. As the technical and educational barriers to entry to web 3 become less of a hurdle, I expect Overtime alone to be a HUGE source of new users to DeFi and to Optimism.
Over the past weeks and months Thales has proven that they can effectively use $OP rewards to bring awareness to their products and grow the eco. It’s been a great success so far and with Overtime in a state of continual growth, now is a great time to leverage $OP incentives to further ignite the future of sports positioning, Overtime!
-DC
The sky is the limit with the way Thales has proven that they can effectively use $OP rewards to br…
The sky is the limit with the way Thales has proven that they can effectively use $OP rewards to bring awareness to their products and grow their ecosystem. It’s been a great success so far and with Overtime in a state of continual growth and collaborations they’ve had so far. Especially with layer 2 dao #No. 1 DAO’s on #L 2 ecosystem shows Thales is heading big and now is a great time to leverage $OP incentives to further ignite the future of sports positioning. Go Go Go :fire::fire::fire:
Can’t wait to see what Overtime will achieve with the FIFA world cup, for me it’s the only protocol…
Can’t wait to see what Overtime will achieve with the FIFA world cup, for me it’s the only protocol present on Optimism that has the potential to bring a whole new category of users who have never interacted with crypto before.
Considering what the whole Thales team has already delivered in such a short time (Crypto AMM, Ranged Markets, Exotic Markets), I have high hopes on what they are going to do again with Overtime, LFG!
As an Optimism delegate with voting power above the required threshold I believe this proposal is r…
As an Optimism delegate with voting power above the required threshold I believe this proposal is ready. Delegate Commitments - # 71 by MoneyManDoug
Overtime has been my favorite and most actively used OP project. Im really looking forward to thei…
Overtime has been my favorite and most actively used OP project. Im really looking forward to their continued development on other markets like world cup and college basketball, as well as expanding to parlays.
I strongly support Overtime Markets and their request for OP funds. Overtime, a part of Thales, wil…
I strongly support Overtime Markets and their request for OP funds. Overtime, a part of Thales, will be one of the major catalysts to not only brings users to Optimism, but to onboard the next generation to web 3 . The Thales team has been Optimism supporters from day 1 , and one of the earliest protocols on the chain. Now with the development of a Sports AMM, they are able to attract an entirely new and massive set of potential new users. The sports positioning market is absolutely massive and rapidly growing. Platforms like DraftKings bring in over $ 1 B of revenue annually, and they don’t have the advantages of being on-chain like Overtime. Sports positioners search high and low for the best odds and Overtime Markets has already proven to be a leader in this area, as predicted… Being an on-chain Sports AMM allows for relatively low overhead cost by relying on smart contracts and much less overhead than a traditional web 2 book. This allows for some of the most competitive odds out there. The best odds bring bring in massive amounts of volume. As the technical and educational barriers to entry to web 3 become less of a hurdle, I expect Overtime alone to be a HUGE source of new users to DeFi and to Optimism. Over the past weeks and months Thales has proven that they can effectively use $OP rewards to bring awareness to their products and grow the eco. It’s been a great success so far and with Overtime in a state of continual growth, now is a great time to leverage $OP incentives to further ignite the future of sports positioning, Overtime! -DC
Overtime is certainly very innovative and the idea of tokenizing sports results is brilliant! Inc…
Overtime is certainly very innovative and the idea of tokenizing sports results is brilliant! Income and fun!
The sky is the limit with the way Thales has proven that they can effectively use $OP rewards to br…
The sky is the limit with the way Thales has proven that they can effectively use $OP rewards to bring awareness to their products and grow their ecosystem. It’s been a great success so far and with Overtime in a state of continual growth and collaborations they’ve had so far. Especially with layer 2 dao #No. 1 DAO’s on #L 2 ecosystem shows Thales is heading big and now is a great time to leverage $OP incentives to further ignite the future of sports positioning. Go Go Go :fire::fire::fire:
Overtime is so far the best project I use on Optimism and in crypto sphere in general.
They are off…
Overtime is so far the best project I use on Optimism and in crypto sphere in general.
They are offering very competitive odds in comparison to other non-crypto betting platforms
which might bring new users even after initial incentives program dry up.
So excited to see this proposal here. Overtime Markets is an ambitious, truly unique Optimism proje…
So excited to see this proposal here. Overtime Markets is an ambitious, truly unique Optimism project that is exemplary of the types of projects we need on L 2 s. We had the Thales team over to the Layer 2 DAO Discord the other week to give a product demo to over 100 community members, and everyone loved it. Such a great project, and a great use of OP tokens to help onboard users into a fantastic web 3 use case.
Can’t wait to see what Overtime will achieve with the FIFA world cup, for me it’s the only protocol…
Can’t wait to see what Overtime will achieve with the FIFA world cup, for me it’s the only protocol present on Optimism that has the potential to bring a whole new category of users who have never interacted with crypto before. Considering what the whole Thales team has already delivered in such a short time (Crypto AMM, Ranged Markets, Exotic Markets), I have high hopes on what they are going to do again with Overtime, LFG!
As an Optimism delegate with voting power above the required threshold I believe this proposal is r…
As an Optimism delegate with voting power above the required threshold I believe this proposal is ready. Delegate Commitments - # 71 by MoneyManDoug 5
The team behind the Overtime Markets and Thales are really wonderful. They’re building something re…
The team behind the Overtime Markets and Thales are really wonderful. They’re building something really big on Optimism.
Would love to see this pass?
I am so happy to see this Proposal from Overtime Markets and would like to share my own experience …
I am so happy to see this Proposal from Overtime Markets and would like to share my own experience with the protocol and team.
First,
Overtime Markets has one of the largest TAMs of all protocols live on Optimism, the potential to onboard new users to L 2 is immense, and this is a crucial differentiator in why I see so much potential here for both Optimism and Thales.
Second,
you can see that Thales is already, but relatively quietly, absolutely thriving in terms of L 2 metrics compiled by Orbiter Finance: it has the 3 rd most active users of all dApps on Optimism only behind Uniswap and Hop! Pretty remarkable.
image 1147 × 418 63 . 9 KB
Third,
I know the team personally and can vouch for their integrity, committment to the right vision and values that Optimism wants to be aligned with, and also their technical prowess in Web 3 . This is an excellent Proposal and should serve the entire Optimism ecosystem well.
Bravo, Thales and Overtime Markets!!!
Weston Nelson :red_circle: :sparkles:
Supporting Public goods and advancement of the Layer 2 Ecosystem has been the core values of Optim…
Supporting Public goods and advancement of the Layer 2 Ecosystem has been the core values of Optimism and Thales Protocol is on that path hence the need to support them at this Critical time.
Thales Protocol/Overtime Market will help to promote, scale and support upcoming Public goods on the Optimism network and Layer 2 Ecosystem in general.
Every support giving to Thales Protocol will be a win win for the Optimism Network.
So their asking for 300 k OP token to help them scale is a good move not just for Optimism Network alone but Layer 2 Ecosystem in general.
Finally I will humbly appeal that Optimism Governance fund grant this all important request.
Vision 24 .
Overtime is certainly very innovative and the idea of tokenizing sports results is brilliant! Inc…
Overtime is certainly very innovative and the idea of tokenizing sports results is brilliant! Income and fun!
Overtime is so far the best project I use on Optimism and in crypto sphere in general. They are off…
Overtime is so far the best project I use on Optimism and in crypto sphere in general. They are offering very competitive odds in comparison to other non-crypto betting platforms which might bring new users even after initial incentives program dry up.
So excited to see this proposal here. Overtime Markets is an ambitious, truly unique Optimism proje…
So excited to see this proposal here. Overtime Markets is an ambitious, truly unique Optimism project that is exemplary of the types of projects we need on L 2 s. We had the Thales team over to the Layer 2 DAO Discord the other week to give a product demo to over 100 community members, and everyone loved it. Such a great project, and a great use of OP tokens to help onboard users into a fantastic web 3 use case.
The team behind the Overtime Markets and Thales are really wonderful. They’re building something re…
The team behind the Overtime Markets and Thales are really wonderful. They’re building something really big on Optimism. Would love to see this pass?
I’m a pretty outspoken fan of what Overtime are doing and am glad they’ve put the work into a propo…
I’m a pretty outspoken fan of what Overtime are doing and am glad they’ve put the work into a proposal here. The timing is perfect for what they’re intending to roll out.
On a per-user basis, hoping to know – what are these fee rebates going to look like? If I place a bet, how much of a rebate do I expect to get, and how would it be distributed?
Red: Hi @jackanorak great to hear you vouch for OT,
The current fee rebate model is currently implemented as per TIP-90 (Thales: Permissionless Parimutuel markets.)
"The maximum amount of bi-weekly rewards established are 8,000 OP tokens and 8,000 THALES tokens.
The leaderboard will calculate rewards as 90% rebate of the SafeBox fee, which is 2% of total amount paid in sUSD.
The $ value of OP and THALES will be calculated using a 7 days twap at the start of the period.
If at the end of the two weeks period the total rebates end up being more than the initial twap value of OP and THALES tokens, the rebate will be adjusted proportionally for every trader."
Users are able to see the leaderboard here: Sport Positional Markets built on Thales
Hope this helps!
mastermojo: jackanorak:
what Overtime are doing and am glad they’ve put the work into a proposal here. The timing is perfect for what they’re intending to roll out.
On a per-user basis, hoping to know – what are these fee rebates going to
Great update Red; The Synthetix Ambassadors also support this proposal.
Bringing Sports Markets on-chain and making it unique to Optimism is a huge win.
Voting yes can help them flourish on the Optimism ecosystem, and bring new users to the ecosystem.
Hi @jackanorak great to hear you vouch for OT,
The current fee rebate model is currently implemente…
Hi @jackanorak great to hear you vouch for OT,
The current fee rebate model is currently implemented as per TIP- 90 (Thales: Permissionless Parimutuel markets.)
"The maximum amount of bi-weekly rewards established are 8 , 000 OP tokens and 8 , 000 THALES tokens.
The leaderboard will calculate rewards as 90 % rebate of the SafeBox fee, which is 2 % of total amount paid in sUSD.
The $ value of OP and THALES will be calculated using a 7 days twap at the start of the period.
If at the end of the two weeks period the total rebates end up being more than the initial twap value of OP and THALES tokens, the rebate will be adjusted proportionally for every trader."
Users are able to see the leaderboard here: Sport Positional Markets built on Thales
Hope this helps!
I am so happy to see this Proposal from Overtime Markets and would like to share my own experience …
I am so happy to see this Proposal from Overtime Markets and would like to share my own experience with the protocol and team. First, Overtime Markets has one of the largest TAMs of all protocols live on Optimism, the potential to onboard new users to L 2 is immense, and this is a crucial differentiator in why I see so much potential here for both Optimism and Thales. Second, you can see that Thales is already, but relatively quietly, absolutely thriving in terms of L 2 metrics compiled by Orbiter Finance: it has the 3 rd most active users of all dApps on Optimism only behind Uniswap and Hop! Pretty remarkable. image 1147 × 418 63 . 9 KB Third, I know the team personally and can vouch for their integrity, committment to the right vision and values that Optimism wants to be aligned with, and also their technical prowess in Web 3 . This is an excellent Proposal and should serve the entire Optimism ecosystem well. Bravo, Thales and Overtime Markets!!! Weston Nelson :red_circle: :sparkles:
Supporting Public goods and advancement of the Layer 2 Ecosystem has been the core values of Optim…
Supporting Public goods and advancement of the Layer 2 Ecosystem has been the core values of Optimism and Thales Protocol is on that path hence the need to support them at this Critical time. Thales Protocol/Overtime Market will help to promote, scale and support upcoming Public goods on the Optimism network and Layer 2 Ecosystem in general. Every support giving to Thales Protocol will be a win win for the Optimism Network. So their asking for 300 k OP token to help them scale is a good move not just for Optimism Network alone but Layer 2 Ecosystem in general. Finally I will humbly appeal that Optimism Governance fund grant this all important request. Vision 24 .
I’m a pretty outspoken fan of what Overtime are doing and am glad they’ve put the work into a propo…
I’m a pretty outspoken fan of what Overtime are doing and am glad they’ve put the work into a proposal here. The timing is perfect for what they’re intending to roll out. On a per-user basis, hoping to know – what are these fee rebates going to look like? If I place a bet, how much of a rebate do I expect to get, and how would it be distributed?
Red: Hi @jackanorak great to hear you vouch for OT,
The current fee rebate model is currently implemented as per TIP-90 (Thales: Permissionless Parimutuel markets.)
"The maximum amount of bi-weekly rewards established are 8,000 OP tokens and 8,000 THALES tokens.
The leaderboard will calculate rewards as 90% rebate of the SafeBox fee, which is 2% of total amount paid in sUSD.
The $ value of OP and THALES will be calculated using a 7 days twap at the start of the period.
If at the end of the two weeks period the total rebates end up being more than the initial twap value of OP and THALES tokens, the rebate will be adjusted proportionally for every trader."
Users are able to see the leaderboard here: Sport Positional Markets built on Thales
Hope this helps!
mastermojo: jackanorak:
what Overtime are doing and am glad they’ve put the work into a proposal here. The timing is perfect for what they’re intending to roll out.
On a per-user basis, hoping to know – what are these fee rebates going to
Great update Red; The Synthetix Ambassadors also support this proposal.
Bringing Sports Markets on-chain and making it unique to Optimism is a huge win.
Voting yes can help them flourish on the Optimism ecosystem, and bring new users to the ecosystem.
Hi @jackanorak great to hear you vouch for OT, The current fee rebate model is currently implemente…
Hi @jackanorak great to hear you vouch for OT, The current fee rebate model is currently implemented as per TIP- 90 (Thales: Permissionless Parimutuel markets.) "The maximum amount of bi-weekly rewards established are 8 , 000 OP tokens and 8 , 000 THALES tokens. The leaderboard will calculate rewards as 90 % rebate of the SafeBox fee, which is 2 % of total amount paid in sUSD. The $ value of OP and THALES will be calculated using a 7 days twap at the start of the period. If at the end of the two weeks period the total rebates end up being more than the initial twap value of OP and THALES tokens, the rebate will be adjusted proportionally for every trader." Users are able to see the leaderboard here: Sport Positional Markets built on Thales Hope this helps!
This op token would help a lot the project and it’s user to further developpe their technologie, in…
This op token would help a lot the project and it’s user to further developpe their technologie, interaction and give some fame to a project that deserve it !!
This op token would help a lot the project and it’s user to further developpe their technologie, in…
This op token would help a lot the project and it’s user to further developpe their technologie, interaction and give some fame to a project that deserve it !!
I’m not so sure that OP distribution via Thales is long term good. I can only see a farmers that us…
I’m not so sure that OP distribution via Thales is long term good. I can only see a farmers that use actual campaign for OP and when that stop no one come back to use again. IMHO long term not good conceived campaign
I’m not so sure that OP distribution via Thales is long term good. I can only see a farmers that us…
I’m not so sure that OP distribution via Thales is long term good. I can only see a farmers that use actual campaign for OP and when that stop no one come back to use again. IMHO long term not good conceived campaign
I am an Optimism delegate [Delegate Commitments - # 65 by mastermojo ] with sufficient voting powe…
I am an Optimism delegate [Delegate Commitments - # 65 by mastermojo ] with sufficient voting power, and I believe this proposal is ready to move to a vote
I am an Optimism delegate [Delegate Commitments - # 65 by mastermojo ] with sufficient voting powe…
I am an Optimism delegate [Delegate Commitments - # 65 by mastermojo ] with sufficient voting power, and I believe this proposal is ready to move to a vote
This proposal is driven by the Thales team my questions are:
-Is Overtime Markets a Thales product?…
This proposal is driven by the Thales team my questions are:
-Is Overtime Markets a Thales product?
Thales won a phase 0 grant and we have not seen results yet, are there any performance metrics from Thales?
This was their previous proposal:
[GF: Phase 0 Proposal] Thales Governance Fund: Phase 0
Project Name: Thales
Author Name: padzank
Defillama TVL (at snapshot): $ 256 , 168
Transactions/day (at snapshot): 152
Tier: 3
Optimism native: Yes
Revisions to metrics used: N/A
Number of OP tokens to claim: 900 , 000
L 2 Recipient Address: 0 x 489863 b 61 C 625 a 15 C 74 FB 4 C 21486 baCb 4 A 3937 AB
Proposal for token distribution (under 1000 words):
As one of the first projects on Optimism and as an Optimism-first project, Thales has a direct interest in the overall success of Optimism. By receiving an all…
If I remember correctly, the Thales team after winning phase 0 resubmitted for phase 1 , which was rejected because they had not yet demonstrated results from the previous phase.
The proposer and the team is the same as the Thales team, is this correct?
padzank: Overtime Markets is a product built on top of the Thales core infrastructure. The foundation market contracts used for Thales marketplace and the ThalesAMM contract were found to be a perfect fit to develop an instance of the contracts to revolve around Sports markets. With amazing relationship with Chainlink and their willingness to leverage Overtime to showcase their sports data capabilities, this is how Overtime was born. It is a separate product built using the Thales core infrastructure.
Overtime was not included into Thales OP token allocation distribution from Phase 0 because the product did not exist at that time. Phase 0 allocation was mostly designated towards THALES/WETH liquidity and thalesmarket.io product usage. We are considering the OP token incentives to be highly successful in what they were designated towards. Down below you can see some relevant metrics of Thales Marketplace growth since the start of OP incentives.
Monthly Trading Volume increased from ~$350k per month to ~$2.5M trading volume per month
Daily Unique Traders increased from ~10 to ~50
Daily Trades Executed increased from ~30 to ~200
Discord Members increased from ~2,000 to ~5,500
THALES token on-chain liquidity increased 5x and remained stable at around $2m of effective liquidity on the incentivized pool at around a stable ~100% APY.
There are already clear positive results around the effects of the OP token towards growth, marketing and exposure, even though most of Thales Phase 0 allocation still has ~3 months of distribution period that will remain true to the original Phase 0 proposal.
@OPUser shared his findings around Thales Phase 0 distribution results here: Goverance Fund Accountability - An overview
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives.
Even though Overtime product was not included in Phase 0, we subsequently took around 15,000 OP tokens from the Protocol Usage bucket of Thales and distributed them as various incentives towards Overtime product users for the past 2 months. These small experimental incentives showed to be very effective towards bringing new attention to the product.
Can Thales provide details on the above grants, in your proposal of 10 % of 900 k tokens, was int…
Can Thales provide details on the above grants, in your proposal of 10 % of 900 k tokens, was intended for builders can you update us, as well as your LM program?
According to your phase 0 proposal part of the funds would be used to incentivize part of the users of your products, overtime markets is not included in this?
This proposal is driven by the Thales team my questions are: -Is Overtime Markets a Thales product?…
This proposal is driven by the Thales team my questions are: -Is Overtime Markets a Thales product? Thales won a phase 0 grant and we have not seen results yet, are there any performance metrics from Thales? This was their previous proposal: [GF: Phase 0 Proposal] Thales Governance Fund: Phase 0 Project Name: Thales Author Name: padzank Defillama TVL (at snapshot): $ 256 , 168 Transactions/day (at snapshot): 152 Tier: 3 Optimism native: Yes Revisions to metrics used: N/A Number of OP tokens to claim: 900 , 000 L 2 Recipient Address: 0 x 489863 b 61 C 625 a 15 C 74 FB 4 C 21486 baCb 4 A 3937 AB Proposal for token distribution (under 1000 words): As one of the first projects on Optimism and as an Optimism-first project, Thales has a direct interest in the overall success of Optimism. By receiving an all… If I remember correctly, the Thales team after winning phase 0 resubmitted for phase 1 , which was rejected because they had not yet demonstrated results from the previous phase. The proposer and the team is the same as the Thales team, is this correct?
padzank: Overtime Markets is a product built on top of the Thales core infrastructure. The foundation market contracts used for Thales marketplace and the ThalesAMM contract were found to be a perfect fit to develop an instance of the contracts to revolve around Sports markets. With amazing relationship with Chainlink and their willingness to leverage Overtime to showcase their sports data capabilities, this is how Overtime was born. It is a separate product built using the Thales core infrastructure.
Overtime was not included into Thales OP token allocation distribution from Phase 0 because the product did not exist at that time. Phase 0 allocation was mostly designated towards THALES/WETH liquidity and thalesmarket.io product usage. We are considering the OP token incentives to be highly successful in what they were designated towards. Down below you can see some relevant metrics of Thales Marketplace growth since the start of OP incentives.
Monthly Trading Volume increased from ~$350k per month to ~$2.5M trading volume per month
Daily Unique Traders increased from ~10 to ~50
Daily Trades Executed increased from ~30 to ~200
Discord Members increased from ~2,000 to ~5,500
THALES token on-chain liquidity increased 5x and remained stable at around $2m of effective liquidity on the incentivized pool at around a stable ~100% APY.
There are already clear positive results around the effects of the OP token towards growth, marketing and exposure, even though most of Thales Phase 0 allocation still has ~3 months of distribution period that will remain true to the original Phase 0 proposal.
@OPUser shared his findings around Thales Phase 0 distribution results here: Goverance Fund Accountability - An overview
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives.
Even though Overtime product was not included in Phase 0, we subsequently took around 15,000 OP tokens from the Protocol Usage bucket of Thales and distributed them as various incentives towards Overtime product users for the past 2 months. These small experimental incentives showed to be very effective towards bringing new attention to the product.
Can Thales provide details on the above grants, in your proposal of 10 % of 900 k tokens, was int…
Can Thales provide details on the above grants, in your proposal of 10 % of 900 k tokens, was intended for builders can you update us, as well as your LM program? According to your phase 0 proposal part of the funds would be used to incentivize part of the users of your products, overtime markets is not included in this?
Overtime Markets is a product built on top of the Thales core infrastructure. The foundation market…
Overtime Markets is a product built on top of the Thales core infrastructure. The foundation market contracts used for Thales marketplace and the ThalesAMM contract were found to be a perfect fit to develop an instance of the contracts to revolve around Sports markets. With amazing relationship with Chainlink and their willingness to leverage Overtime to showcase their sports data capabilities, this is how Overtime was born. It is a separate product built using the Thales core infrastructure.
Overtime was not included into Thales OP token allocation distribution from Phase 0 because the product did not exist at that time. Phase 0 allocation was mostly designated towards THALES/WETH liquidity and thalesmarket.io product usage. We are considering the OP token incentives to be highly successful in what they were designated towards. Down below you can see some relevant metrics of Thales Marketplace growth since the start of OP incentives.
Monthly Trading Volume increased from ~$ 350 k per month to ~$ 2 . 5 M trading volume per month
Daily Unique Traders increased from ~ 10 to ~ 50
Daily Trades Executed increased from ~ 30 to ~ 200
Discord Members increased from ~ 2 , 000 to ~ 5 , 500
THALES token on-chain liquidity increased 5 x and remained stable at around $ 2 m of effective liquidity on the incentivized pool at around a stable ~ 100 % APY.
There are already clear positive results around the effects of the OP token towards growth, marketing and exposure, even though most of Thales Phase 0 allocation still has ~ 3 months of distribution period that will remain true to the original Phase 0 proposal.
@OPUser shared his findings around Thales Phase 0 distribution results here: Goverance Fund Accountability - An overview
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90 , 000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives.
Even though Overtime product was not included in Phase 0 , we subsequently took around 15 , 000 OP tokens from the Protocol Usage bucket of Thales and distributed them as various incentives towards Overtime product users for the past 2 months. These small experimental incentives showed to be very effective towards bringing new attention to the product.
newuserreturninguse 935 × 441 15 . 6 KB
AxlVaz: padzank:
Even though Overtime product was not included in Phase 0, we subsequently took around 15,000 OP tokens from the Protocol Usage bucket of Thales and distributed them as various incentives towards Overtime product users for the past 2 months. These small experimental incentives showed to be very effective towards bringing new attention to the product.
Can you indicate where I get the funds from?
ScaleWeb3: We belive Overtime (sports betting) can be one of the early killer apps for Optimism as this areas is not strongly held back by current blockchain limitations and can attract many users with specific events. Consequently, the Fifa Worldcup could be a great occassion to bring in additional users to OT & OP.
It seems you never had unincentivized usage.
Do you think the fee rebates are essential? How did you come up with the expectation of 20 to 40% increase in user numbers based on fee rebates?
If pricing & fees are already better than on centralized platforms and aren’t holding back adoption, 100% focus on user experience and marketing towards user acquisition would be better usage of funds, right? (currently happy users might not need a fee rebate aka unnecesary cost for the Optimism ecosystem and it could be spent on growth instead)
For new products, we’d prefer to see unincentivized, organic usage for some time. Otherwise, it’s really hard to tell whether pricing is (un)attractive to users or if there are other issues to adoption.
Generally, our experience with prediction markets and providing capital in such pools has been that liquidity is a major barrier and it’s tough to find (opposite) parties for certain markets (especially with little trading fees in early stage). Is this an area that holds you back or is it a non-issue for Overtime/Thales? (Hence, there is no focus on this matter in the proposal)
We see that Overtime and Thales are different products & proposals target different areas. Nonetheless, in our opinion it would be best for the Op ecosystem to issue grants for specific goals within the next 6 months (incl. builder initiatives) and have ecosystem teams “spend these tokens” on sustainable growth initiatives (or give them back?) instead of “sitting on tokens” for future usage.
Obviously, this also depends on the demand side and we don’t want to encourage a rapid spending of tokens for uncertain initiatives… but potentially Overtime could use more of these Thales OP tokens to grow adoption… and Thales + Overtime can request more tokens in the future.
padzank:
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives.
Looking forward to your replies!
AxlVaz: danthales:
Idk what this is trying to say, but if its about the Phase0 grant, well Thales distributed almost 50% of it,
refers to this,with respect to the allocation of phase 0
padzank:
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet.
OPUser: Hi @danthales and @Red , thank you for providing additional data. Will try to summarize my side on few question raised here as well as on discord.
You are correct, we looked into data and saw that rebates are aligned toward power users and consensus was that we should also focus on on-boarding new users.
On ecosystem fund, I think you are talking about something else because as per author’s comment, 90K $OP allocated for ecosystem project is sitting in the treasury.
padzank:
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives.
We obviously dont want to spend the token furiously but our goal was to understand why its not being used to give a jump start to a new solution developed by the team. This was asked twice but we did not get an answer.
I understand that Overtime did not exist during Phase 0 and when reviewing this proposal we considered Overtime as an independent solution and that is why we are not talking about complete Phase 0 proposal. This is how I see it, an innovative protocol build by team with dedicated fund set aside for ecosystem growth.
Third point was co-incentives. Co-incentives are proposal and protocol specific and I tried to get my doubt clarified, twice.
OPUser:
when can we expect more info on this ?
After not getting a clear answer on the forum, I reached out to the author via DM to collect more information so that we can make an informed decision.
removing text as team might not want to make the detail public. summary is that information was provided on 30% allocation but co-incentives were still not clear
I see some people think I am against the protocol and attacking me. What I would like to insist is that, we are mixing the credibility of protocol with the recommendation of this proposal, we spent significant time reviewing this proposal and looked at it from all angle, one reason for publishing recommendation at the last was because I was waiting for additional information to my DM.
I believe that all proposal should get a fair review and chance to participate in this gov and we should welcome them to Optimism ecosystem through this governance funding. Apart from spending significant amount of time on the forum, usually I reach out to proposal’s author via DM and on discord to understand their side and to collect more information with a goal that final decision is not made in a hurry or on the basis on half-knowledge. Help me understand, what else I should have done from my side.
Like Julian from @ScaleWeb3 has mentioned, we are all supportive of Overtime and believe that its goals are aligned with Optimism and echo his view on resubmitting proposal in 2 weeks than rushing things and setting bad precedence.
Overtime Markets is a product built on top of the Thales core infrastructure. The foundation market…
Overtime Markets is a product built on top of the Thales core infrastructure. The foundation market contracts used for Thales marketplace and the ThalesAMM contract were found to be a perfect fit to develop an instance of the contracts to revolve around Sports markets. With amazing relationship with Chainlink and their willingness to leverage Overtime to showcase their sports data capabilities, this is how Overtime was born. It is a separate product built using the Thales core infrastructure. Overtime was not included into Thales OP token allocation distribution from Phase 0 because the product did not exist at that time. Phase 0 allocation was mostly designated towards THALES/WETH liquidity and thalesmarket.io product usage. We are considering the OP token incentives to be highly successful in what they were designated towards. Down below you can see some relevant metrics of Thales Marketplace growth since the start of OP incentives. Monthly Trading Volume increased from ~$ 350 k per month to ~$ 2 . 5 M trading volume per month Daily Unique Traders increased from ~ 10 to ~ 50 Daily Trades Executed increased from ~ 30 to ~ 200 Discord Members increased from ~ 2 , 000 to ~ 5 , 500 THALES token on-chain liquidity increased 5 x and remained stable at around $ 2 m of effective liquidity on the incentivized pool at around a stable ~ 100 % APY. There are already clear positive results around the effects of the OP token towards growth, marketing and exposure, even though most of Thales Phase 0 allocation still has ~ 3 months of distribution period that will remain true to the original Phase 0 proposal. @OPUser shared his findings around Thales Phase 0 distribution results here: Goverance Fund Accountability - An overview 2 Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90 , 000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives. Even though Overtime product was not included in Phase 0 , we subsequently took around 15 , 000 OP tokens from the Protocol Usage bucket of Thales and distributed them as various incentives towards Overtime product users for the past 2 months. These small experimental incentives showed to be very effective towards bringing new attention to the product. newuserreturninguse 935 × 441 15 . 6 KB
AxlVaz: padzank:
Even though Overtime product was not included in Phase 0, we subsequently took around 15,000 OP tokens from the Protocol Usage bucket of Thales and distributed them as various incentives towards Overtime product users for the past 2 months. These small experimental incentives showed to be very effective towards bringing new attention to the product.
Can you indicate where I get the funds from?
ScaleWeb3: We belive Overtime (sports betting) can be one of the early killer apps for Optimism as this areas is not strongly held back by current blockchain limitations and can attract many users with specific events. Consequently, the Fifa Worldcup could be a great occassion to bring in additional users to OT & OP.
It seems you never had unincentivized usage.
Do you think the fee rebates are essential? How did you come up with the expectation of 20 to 40% increase in user numbers based on fee rebates?
If pricing & fees are already better than on centralized platforms and aren’t holding back adoption, 100% focus on user experience and marketing towards user acquisition would be better usage of funds, right? (currently happy users might not need a fee rebate aka unnecesary cost for the Optimism ecosystem and it could be spent on growth instead)
For new products, we’d prefer to see unincentivized, organic usage for some time. Otherwise, it’s really hard to tell whether pricing is (un)attractive to users or if there are other issues to adoption.
Generally, our experience with prediction markets and providing capital in such pools has been that liquidity is a major barrier and it’s tough to find (opposite) parties for certain markets (especially with little trading fees in early stage). Is this an area that holds you back or is it a non-issue for Overtime/Thales? (Hence, there is no focus on this matter in the proposal)
We see that Overtime and Thales are different products & proposals target different areas. Nonetheless, in our opinion it would be best for the Op ecosystem to issue grants for specific goals within the next 6 months (incl. builder initiatives) and have ecosystem teams “spend these tokens” on sustainable growth initiatives (or give them back?) instead of “sitting on tokens” for future usage.
Obviously, this also depends on the demand side and we don’t want to encourage a rapid spending of tokens for uncertain initiatives… but potentially Overtime could use more of these Thales OP tokens to grow adoption… and Thales + Overtime can request more tokens in the future.
padzank:
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives.
Looking forward to your replies!
AxlVaz: danthales:
Idk what this is trying to say, but if its about the Phase0 grant, well Thales distributed almost 50% of it,
refers to this,with respect to the allocation of phase 0
padzank:
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet.
OPUser: Hi @danthales and @Red , thank you for providing additional data. Will try to summarize my side on few question raised here as well as on discord.
You are correct, we looked into data and saw that rebates are aligned toward power users and consensus was that we should also focus on on-boarding new users.
On ecosystem fund, I think you are talking about something else because as per author’s comment, 90K $OP allocated for ecosystem project is sitting in the treasury.
padzank:
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives.
We obviously dont want to spend the token furiously but our goal was to understand why its not being used to give a jump start to a new solution developed by the team. This was asked twice but we did not get an answer.
I understand that Overtime did not exist during Phase 0 and when reviewing this proposal we considered Overtime as an independent solution and that is why we are not talking about complete Phase 0 proposal. This is how I see it, an innovative protocol build by team with dedicated fund set aside for ecosystem growth.
Third point was co-incentives. Co-incentives are proposal and protocol specific and I tried to get my doubt clarified, twice.
OPUser:
when can we expect more info on this ?
After not getting a clear answer on the forum, I reached out to the author via DM to collect more information so that we can make an informed decision.
removing text as team might not want to make the detail public. summary is that information was provided on 30% allocation but co-incentives were still not clear
I see some people think I am against the protocol and attacking me. What I would like to insist is that, we are mixing the credibility of protocol with the recommendation of this proposal, we spent significant time reviewing this proposal and looked at it from all angle, one reason for publishing recommendation at the last was because I was waiting for additional information to my DM.
I believe that all proposal should get a fair review and chance to participate in this gov and we should welcome them to Optimism ecosystem through this governance funding. Apart from spending significant amount of time on the forum, usually I reach out to proposal’s author via DM and on discord to understand their side and to collect more information with a goal that final decision is not made in a hurry or on the basis on half-knowledge. Help me understand, what else I should have done from my side.
Like Julian from @ScaleWeb3 has mentioned, we are all supportive of Overtime and believe that its goals are aligned with Optimism and echo his view on resubmitting proposal in 2 weeks than rushing things and setting bad precedence.
padzank: Even though Overtime product was not included in Phase 0 , we subsequently took arou…
padzank: Even though Overtime product was not included in Phase 0 , we subsequently took around 15 , 000 OP tokens from the Protocol Usage bucket of Thales and distributed them as various incentives towards Overtime product users for the past 2 months. These small experimental incentives showed to be very effective towards bringing new attention to the product. Can you indicate where I get the funds from?
The 15 , 000 OP (matched with 15 , 000 THALES tokens) funds used to short-term trial incentive …
The 15 , 000 OP (matched with 15 , 000 THALES tokens) funds used to short-term trial incentive program for Overtime were used from the highlighted 360 , 000 OP allocation towards Thales Products Users (thalesmarket.io Trading Incentives) that were still not committed from Thales treasury by the governance structure by the time Overtime launched. These funds were originally intended towards thalesmarket.io future Trading Competitions, new Referral Program promotions, Exotic Markets product growth next to the already committed AMM Trading Incentives and Gamified Staking trading incentives that take over the majority of those 360 , 000 OP tokens. Our Governance Structure agreed to take out 15 , 000 OP tokens towards Overtime from the original allocation for this trial as Overtime is held at the highest potential for global market fit. Also, maybe it is important to note that we are in constant communication with Optimism and they are as excited as we are about the growth potential of Optimism native Overtime. They are continuously assisting us with third-party tooling, introductions, growth advice and technical support.
AxlVaz: padzank:
The 90k OP allocation is reserved as grants for third party builders on top of Thales Protocol, and that is how it is cemented ever since Phase 0 allocation. We take our commitments to Optimism Governance seriously and would feel like doing bad by the community of builders and evading Phase 0 promises by using these 90,000 OP tokens towards a product that is not built by Third Party Community builders but by the core team. Again, confuses me that this also is taken as a flaw in our commitments instead of a positive precedent.
This is really good of the team.
But I also understand that they used the tokens for incentives from the same phase 0, to incentivize Overtime.
padzank:
The 15,000 OP (matched with 15,000 THALES tokens) funds used to short-term trial incentive program for Overtime were used from the highlighted 360,000 OP allocation towards Thales Products Users (thalesmarket.io Trading Incentives) that were still not committed from Thales treasury by the governance structure by the time Overtime launched. These funds were originally intended towards thalesmarket.io future Trading Competitions, new Referral Program promotions, Exotic Markets product growth next to the already committed AMM Trading Incentives and Gamified Staking trading incentives that take over the majority of those 360,000 OP tokens. Our Governance Structure agreed to take out 15,000 OP tokens towards Overtime from the original allocation for this trial as Overtime is held at the highest potential for global market fit.
Really like the value proposition. I do believe gaming could bring value of web 3 in general. Coul…
Really like the value proposition. I do believe gaming could bring value of web 3 in general. Could you please help with few points. 70 % as incentives in form of Fee Rebates to create an inviting environment to help with the Overtime growth and user increase. how would you describe “inviting environment” ? As a user what would i need to do to be part of this incentives ? How will the distribution plan look like ? You mention fee rebates, in current state how does this look like. could you please paint a picture for us. 30 % as targeted events… Similarly here, you have a space of 30 K which is pretty big. How would you do this and where ? KPIs are really well defined. Project with match co-incentives with THALES tokens to a certain degree that will be determined by the governance structure. when can we expect more info on this ?
padzank: how would you describe “inviting environment” ? As a user what would i need to do to be part of this incentives ? How will the distribution plan look like ? You mention fee rebates, in current state how does this look like. could you please paint a picture for us.
By offering Fee Rebates to users, the user/trader would feel more comfortable trading on Overtime knowing that he will get OP+THALES rewards proportional to the amount of fees they generated. This is especially beneficial for growth of the project and for UX for end traders as it will create a lucrative environment for Sports Positioning compared to centralized competitors, especially as Overtime already offers the best rates in the industry. We are highly optimistic that this specific initiative will prove to be the most impactful one, especially as organically the Fee Rebate emissions should be on the low side compared to other incentive structures such as LP mining.
30% as targeted events…
Similarly here, you have a space of 30K which is pretty big. How would you do this and where ?
Targeted Events allocation is basically focused incentives (trading competitions, per-game incentives, incentives specific for certain tournament brackets) for exclusive sporting events and new offerings that are the most popular globally. These focused campaigns tend to be a major tool in bringing new attention to the product as this industry is mostly event driven.
Project with match co-incentives with THALES tokens to a certain degree that will be determined by the governance structure.
when can we expect more info on this ?
Co-incentives are solidified during the detailed planning of emissions during the internal governance sessions as to find a best possible matching balance for that specific period in time. So far, the Thales governance structure matched all incentives almost equally.
OPUser: Hi @danthales and @Red , thank you for providing additional data. Will try to summarize my side on few question raised here as well as on discord.
You are correct, we looked into data and saw that rebates are aligned toward power users and consensus was that we should also focus on on-boarding new users.
On ecosystem fund, I think you are talking about something else because as per author’s comment, 90K $OP allocated for ecosystem project is sitting in the treasury.
padzank:
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives.
We obviously dont want to spend the token furiously but our goal was to understand why its not being used to give a jump start to a new solution developed by the team. This was asked twice but we did not get an answer.
I understand that Overtime did not exist during Phase 0 and when reviewing this proposal we considered Overtime as an independent solution and that is why we are not talking about complete Phase 0 proposal. This is how I see it, an innovative protocol build by team with dedicated fund set aside for ecosystem growth.
Third point was co-incentives. Co-incentives are proposal and protocol specific and I tried to get my doubt clarified, twice.
OPUser:
when can we expect more info on this ?
After not getting a clear answer on the forum, I reached out to the author via DM to collect more information so that we can make an informed decision.
removing text as team might not want to make the detail public. summary is that information was provided on 30% allocation but co-incentives were still not clear
I see some people think I am against the protocol and attacking me. What I would like to insist is that, we are mixing the credibility of protocol with the recommendation of this proposal, we spent significant time reviewing this proposal and looked at it from all angle, one reason for publishing recommendation at the last was because I was waiting for additional information to my DM.
I believe that all proposal should get a fair review and chance to participate in this gov and we should welcome them to Optimism ecosystem through this governance funding. Apart from spending significant amount of time on the forum, usually I reach out to proposal’s author via DM and on discord to understand their side and to collect more information with a goal that final decision is not made in a hurry or on the basis on half-knowledge. Help me understand, what else I should have done from my side.
Like Julian from @ScaleWeb3 has mentioned, we are all supportive of Overtime and believe that its goals are aligned with Optimism and echo his view on resubmitting proposal in 2 weeks than rushing things and setting bad precedence.
how would you describe “inviting environment” ? As a user what would i need to do to be part of th…
how would you describe “inviting environment” ? As a user what would i need to do to be part of this incentives ? How will the distribution plan look like ? You mention fee rebates, in current state how does this look like. could you please paint a picture for us. By offering Fee Rebates to users, the user/trader would feel more comfortable trading on Overtime knowing that he will get OP+THALES rewards proportional to the amount of fees they generated. This is especially beneficial for growth of the project and for UX for end traders as it will create a lucrative environment for Sports Positioning compared to centralized competitors, especially as Overtime already offers the best rates in the industry. We are highly optimistic that this specific initiative will prove to be the most impactful one, especially as organically the Fee Rebate emissions should be on the low side compared to other incentive structures such as LP mining. 30 % as targeted events… Similarly here, you have a space of 30 K which is pretty big. How would you do this and where ? Targeted Events allocation is basically focused incentives (trading competitions, per-game incentives, incentives specific for certain tournament brackets) for exclusive sporting events and new offerings that are the most popular globally. These focused campaigns tend to be a major tool in bringing new attention to the product as this industry is mostly event driven. Project with match co-incentives with THALES tokens to a certain degree that will be determined by the governance structure. when can we expect more info on this ? Co-incentives are solidified during the detailed planning of emissions during the internal governance sessions as to find a best possible matching balance for that specific period in time. So far, the Thales governance structure matched all incentives almost equally.
We belive Overtime (sports betting) can be one of the early killer apps for Optimism as this areas …
We belive Overtime (sports betting) can be one of the early killer apps for Optimism as this areas is not strongly held back by current blockchain limitations and can attract many users with specific events. Consequently, the Fifa Worldcup could be a great occassion to bring in additional users to OT & OP. It seems you never had unincentivized usage. Do you think the fee rebates are essential? How did you come up with the expectation of 20 to 40 % increase in user numbers based on fee rebates? If pricing & fees are already better than on centralized platforms and aren’t holding back adoption, 100 % focus on user experience and marketing towards user acquisition would be better usage of funds, right? (currently happy users might not need a fee rebate aka unnecesary cost for the Optimism ecosystem and it could be spent on growth instead) For new products, we’d prefer to see unincentivized, organic usage for some time. Otherwise, it’s really hard to tell whether pricing is (un)attractive to users or if there are other issues to adoption. Generally, our experience with prediction markets and providing capital in such pools has been that liquidity is a major barrier and it’s tough to find (opposite) parties for certain markets (especially with little trading fees in early stage). Is this an area that holds you back or is it a non-issue for Overtime/Thales? (Hence, there is no focus on this matter in the proposal) We see that Overtime and Thales are different products & proposals target different areas. Nonetheless, in our opinion it would be best for the Op ecosystem to issue grants for specific goals within the next 6 months (incl. builder initiatives) and have ecosystem teams “spend these tokens” on sustainable growth initiatives (or give them back?) instead of “sitting on tokens” for future usage. Obviously, this also depends on the demand side and we don’t want to encourage a rapid spending of tokens for uncertain initiatives… but potentially Overtime could use more of these Thales OP tokens to grow adoption… and Thales + Overtime can request more tokens in the future. padzank: Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90 , 000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives. Looking forward to your replies!
Do you think the fee rebates are essential? How did you come up with the expectation of 20 to …
Do you think the fee rebates are essential? How did you come up with the expectation of 20 to 40 % increase in user numbers based on fee rebates? We determined that the fee rebates seem to be the most effective low-cost growth tool. They are low emissions compared to straight volume incentives and are more inviting towards organic usage, instead of drawing in farmers only. As sports positioning industry is a constant competition around who will provide the best odds, giving a fee rebate rewards to users gives Overtime an edge using tokenization against limited centralized solutions. This brings more eyes to Overtime and provides a solid stream of new organic growth since farmers cannot take advantage of a fee rebate system without taking on positioning risk. If pricing & fees are already better than on centralized platforms and aren’t holding back adoption, 100 % focus on user experience and marketing towards user acquisition would be better usage of funds, right? (currently happy users might not need a fee rebate aka unnecesary cost for the Optimism ecosystem and it could be spent on growth instead) Overtime does provide highly competitive sports positioning terms compared to centralized solutions and is constantly working on iteratively improving UX and constant new exposure campaigns. Having 70 % of this OP grant proposal planned towards long-term fee rebate program fits into UX and marketing tool at the same time. It solidifies Overtimes edge in the industry regarding user experience, and it gives further incentives for non-crypto people to make an effort towards learning about onboarding the Optimism network, using EVM compatible wallet and educating themselves around Web 3 for a clear benefit. These are not trivial efforts for non-crypto people but are necessary for increase in adoption of Optimism and Overtime with it. We would not call fee rebates unnecessary cost as it represents one of the most effective and non-toxic growth incentives. Generally, our experience with prediction markets and providing capital in such pools has been that liquidity is a major barrier and it’s tough to find (opposite) parties for certain markets (especially with little trading fees in early stage). Is this an area that holds you back or is it a non-issue for Overtime/Thales? (Hence, there is no focus on this matter in the proposal) We are using an elegant novel AMM contract that seeds liquidity to sports markets based on Chainlink provided pre-game odds. Every created game market is a separate contract that is seeded with on-demand liquidity by a global SportsAMM contract and we think this liquidity model is a worlds first working model for these type of markets. Liquidity of games is not an issue requiring incentives as it is currently 100 % seeded from the treasury that takes on the risk until we develop a external LP system with revenue share. Keep in mind the novel AMM is super capital efficient and it does not require massive collateral for high demand. To learn more about it, visit this link: https://docs.overtimemarkets.xyz/decentralized-sports-markets/sports-amm We see that Overtime and Thales are different products & proposals target different areas. Nonetheless, in our opinion it would be best for the Op ecosystem to issue grants for specific goals within the next 6 months (incl. builder initiatives) and have ecosystem teams “spend these tokens” on sustainable growth initiatives (or give them back?) instead of “sitting on tokens” for future usage. Fee Rebates incentives would be committed until they are depleted and are not possible to have a fixed timed emissions. Fee Rebate emissions are proportional the usage of Overtime. Bucket of 30 % towards targeted campaigns are also impossible to time right now since it requires to be highly adaptable to upcoming major events in the world of Sports.
Recommendation from DeFi committee C 11 Value-Add Overtime Market is a unique product implemented…
Recommendation from DeFi committee C 11 Value-Add Overtime Market is a unique product implemented on the Optimism chain. Launched 2 months ago and achieved some traction already - partially due to incentives from Thales incl. OP. The proposal can help Overtime & Optimism gain users. Traction Until now, Overtime Market has been performing well in attracting early power users & almost 1 K total users. Metrics achieved in 65 days since launch on Optimism: 943 unique traders 8 , 609 total trades above 200 txns per day 15 supported sports leagues and rising $ 1 , 041 , 389 Settled Volume $ 2 . 1 M Notional Volume above 60 Unique Daily Users on average incl. daily new users Amount The requested amount is 300 K $OP tokens, which is a reasonable figure. But given that the Overtime team is partly the same Thales team that already received a grant of 900 k $OP tokens in phase 0 , the requested amount is high. Thales Phase 0 : https://gov.optimism.io/t/gf-phase- 0 -proposal-thales/ 1078 2 " OP Distribution Distribution of up to 50 K for World Cup incentives, rest of targeted events & fee rebates depends on market demand (might last longer than aspired 6 months) 70 % as incentives in form of Fee Rebates to create an inviting environment to help with the Overtime growth and user increase. 30 % as targeted events to help user growth of new league and sport integrations. Co-incentives The co-incentives will be determined by governance, which is the same as Thales’ governance ( https://docs.overtimemarkets.xyz/decentralized-sports-markets/governance). And if implemented, it will be with the Thales token. Alignment As an Optimism native platform. there is no doubt that the Thales team is aligned with the Optimism ecosystem, Recommendation NO Overtime Market is a good product that is getting decent early traction - with OP/Thales incentives. Looking at the analytics & current fee rebates, the fee rebates would largely accrue to current top users and would likely last a lot longer than 6 months. At the same time, the Thales team still has almost 100 % of funds for ecosystem projects, and we believe this would justify reducing the fee rebate program & total grant amount at least 1 / 3 . This recommendation should not hinder on-boarding during the world cup as max 50 K of OP were suggested and we’d recommend re-submission for the next cycle Our past recommendation is available on committee recommendation thread 6 .
OPGovWatch: OPUser:
Overtime Market is a good product that is getting decent early traction - with OP/Thales incentives. Looking at the analytics & current fee rebates, the fee rebates would largely accrue to current top users and would likely last a lot longer than 6 months. At the same time, the Thales team still has almost 100% of funds for ecosystem projects, and we believe this would justify reducing the fee rebate program & total grant amount at least 1/3. This recommendation should not hinder on-boarding during the world cup as max 50K of OP were suggested and we’d recommend re-submission for the next cycle
There are three reasons cited here for the “no” recommendation:
the fee rebates would largely accrue to current top users
they would likely last a lot longer than 6 months
the Thales team still has almost 100% of funds for ecosystem projects
Were these flagged as potential deal breaking details by committee members prior in the two weeks prior? Or are they being raised here for the first time?
danthales: the fee rebates would largely accrue to current top users
That argument would make much more sense for a pro rata volume driven incentives, but fee rebates are fee rebates - every trader gets those. Its actually the only distribution mechanism that is impossible to be sybiled or drained by whales.
they would likely last a lot longer than 6 months
I guess this assumption is made by taking into account the historical volume for a protocol that is released two months ago and was in beta with relatively low liquidity caps. We have huge plans for the next month, including releasing Parlays and opening up the Sports AMM to anyone to provide liquidity on the sports they choose, which is likely to 10x the volume and also increase the TVL on Optimism. We hoped these plans would be backed by this grant for max impact.
the Thales team still has almost 100% of funds for ecosystem projects
Idk what this is trying to say, but if its about the Phase0 grant, well Thales distributed almost 50% of it, and in that process it achieved an amazing increase in volume and unique users for the Crypto AMM product, while ensuring the rewards go to the hands of organic users (not sybilers, farmers, etc). I fully believe that Thales is one of the firsts, if not the first protocol that has actually used the majority of Phase0 grant for what it was actually intended, while keeping Optimism’s best interest in mind, instead of hording the tokens in treasury, self-delegating those in governance, paying grants to its developers, or whatever other governance mockery we’ve seen other projects pull to date.
Also, to reiterate a fact said many times: Overtime did not exist during Phase0 allocation.
In general, I do feel like pointing out that this recommendation goes against the sentiment of the Optimism’s community, which was demonstrated both here and in discord’s temp check. And it does so for some wrong assumptions, which makes me wonder if the said DeFi committee has tried the product, watched it grow, or understands the potential of the 50 billion dollars industry we are tapping into here. Ultimately, if this committe does not see the value in supporting Overtime as an Optimism native project, well thats a clear signal by itself.
MrBreakout: I read this threat from beginning to end and I’am puzzled and pretty disappointed how you end up thinking requested amount is too high for Overtime product and rejected maybe the best written and deserved project on OP.
I mean I do not get what they need to provide you to get additional funding ?
One of a kind product which does not existing anywhere else on blockchain, they give you growth numbers which no other project has and you are simply questioning how the numbers would be if there is no incentives at first place ? really ?
I thought all purpose of OP token was to drive new users and volume
I think this decision is a disgrace for OP platform and you guys really should think again about how your committee give their decisions and what their real intentions are
Hey Red from Thales/Overtime here. I just want to point out how fee rebates are of catalytic import…
Hey Red from Thales/Overtime here. I just want to point out how fee rebates are of catalytic importance for our users. At the moment, Overtime odds competes with major centralized bookies, although it doesn’t always have the edge. Fee rebates, allows us to not only compete, but take the lead on offering the best odds in the industry. This is a major point to attract users from web 2 to web 3 . Without a solid offering there’s not many reasons for them to make the move. This is why offering the best odds is of importance. The table below compares the odds of 2 major centralized bookies and Overtime with rebates and different sizes. image 802 × 854 46 . 5 KB As incentives rolls out we are working on new solutions to bring the price impact of buyers down. The first solution which will be implemented in the next few days starts with offering a price impact discount to position where the AMM is heavily involved. You can further ready about the TIP here : Thales: Permissionless Parimutuel markets. The second solution is to increase the AMM liquidity. Overtime is currently a new product and opening the AMM to the public would be reckless. As we move out of “Beta” and further work on the kinks of the AMM to be as efficient as possible we will make the move. At the moment we are working on this for the CryptoAMM. Opening the AMM for deposits will allow to increase the liquidity per market hence decreasing the price impact of big volume buys. As you can see we have plans to bring the best prices to our users, and we are grateful for the opportunity to obtain 300 , 000 $OP tokens to help us incentivizes this growth plan. Truth is that without these incentives we would lose our immediate edge and therefore wouldn’t be as attractive as one can be. This means less users for Overtime and Optimism.
mastermojo: jackanorak:
what Overtime are doing and am glad they’ve put the work into a proposal here. The timing is perfect for what they’re intending to roll out.
On a per-user basis, hoping to know – what are these fee rebates going to
Great update Red; The Synthetix Ambassadors also support this proposal.
Bringing Sports Markets on-chain and making it unique to Optimism is a huge win.
Voting yes can help them flourish on the Optimism ecosystem, and bring new users to the ecosystem.
The defi shadow committee 2 – which is not an official committee – supports this proposal 5 . …
The defi shadow committee 2 – which is not an official committee – supports this proposal 5 . We support the proposal and respect their path to growth on Optimism. The dual-pronged approach of fee rebates and direct marketing campaigns are likely highly catalytic for user growth on Optimism — and this would be a different user segment than typical market-dependent defi users and crypto speculators. Overtime Markets has a unique value proposition for Optimism and stands apart from crypto-native DeFi protocols. With these fee rebates, we believe they ought be able to better compete with centralized offerings and continue the growth they’ve seen over the last 2 months since launch. We thank @Red for following up on our inquiries into this question and think Overtime have made a strong case. We think there is an information gap that Overtime could meet by reporting more of their expected go-to-market strategy, but now is the time to give them an opportunity to jump ahead of the pack.
Couldn’t agree more. This is a great proposal from Overtime and I’m excited to see it pass. I invit…
Couldn’t agree more. This is a great proposal from Overtime and I’m excited to see it pass. I invite other committees to reconsider their recommendations with this new information. Thanks @Red and @jackanorak
jackanorak: what Overtime are doing and am glad they’ve put the work into a proposal here. The…
jackanorak: what Overtime are doing and am glad they’ve put the work into a proposal here. The timing is perfect for what they’re intending to roll out. On a per-user basis, hoping to know – what are these fee rebates going to Great update Red; The Synthetix Ambassadors also support this proposal. Bringing Sports Markets on-chain and making it unique to Optimism is a huge win. Voting yes can help them flourish on the Optimism ecosystem, and bring new users to the ecosystem.
OPUser: Overtime Market is a good product that is getting decent early traction - with OP/Thal…
OPUser: Overtime Market is a good product that is getting decent early traction - with OP/Thales incentives. Looking at the analytics & current fee rebates, the fee rebates would largely accrue to current top users and would likely last a lot longer than 6 months. At the same time, the Thales team still has almost 100 % of funds for ecosystem projects, and we believe this would justify reducing the fee rebate program & total grant amount at least 1 / 3 . This recommendation should not hinder on-boarding during the world cup as max 50 K of OP were suggested and we’d recommend re-submission for the next cycle There are three reasons cited here for the “no” recommendation: the fee rebates would largely accrue to current top users they would likely last a lot longer than 6 months the Thales team still has almost 100 % of funds for ecosystem projects Were these flagged as potential deal breaking details by committee members prior in the two weeks prior? Or are they being raised here for the first time?
the fee rebates would largely accrue to current top users That argument would make much more sens…
the fee rebates would largely accrue to current top users That argument would make much more sense for a pro rata volume driven incentives, but fee rebates are fee rebates - every trader gets those. Its actually the only distribution mechanism that is impossible to be sybiled or drained by whales. they would likely last a lot longer than 6 months I guess this assumption is made by taking into account the historical volume for a protocol that is released two months ago and was in beta with relatively low liquidity caps. We have huge plans for the next month, including releasing Parlays and opening up the Sports AMM to anyone to provide liquidity on the sports they choose, which is likely to 10 x the volume and also increase the TVL on Optimism. We hoped these plans would be backed by this grant for max impact. the Thales team still has almost 100 % of funds for ecosystem projects Idk what this is trying to say, but if its about the Phase 0 grant, well Thales distributed almost 50 % of it, and in that process it achieved an amazing increase in volume and unique users for the Crypto AMM product, while ensuring the rewards go to the hands of organic users (not sybilers, farmers, etc). I fully believe that Thales is one of the firsts, if not the first protocol that has actually used the majority of Phase 0 grant for what it was actually intended, while keeping Optimism’s best interest in mind, instead of hording the tokens in treasury, self-delegating those in governance, paying grants to its developers, or whatever other governance mockery we’ve seen other projects pull to date. Also, to reiterate a fact said many times: Overtime did not exist during Phase 0 allocation. In general, I do feel like pointing out that this recommendation goes against the sentiment of the Optimism’s community, which was demonstrated both here and in discord’s temp check. And it does so for some wrong assumptions, which makes me wonder if the said DeFi committee has tried the product, watched it grow, or understands the potential of the 50 billion dollars industry we are tapping into here. Ultimately, if this committe does not see the value in supporting Overtime as an Optimism native project, well thats a clear signal by itself.
AxlVaz: danthales:
Idk what this is trying to say, but if its about the Phase0 grant, well Thales distributed almost 50% of it,
refers to this,with respect to the allocation of phase 0
padzank:
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet.
OPUser: Hi @danthales and @Red , thank you for providing additional data. Will try to summarize my side on few question raised here as well as on discord.
You are correct, we looked into data and saw that rebates are aligned toward power users and consensus was that we should also focus on on-boarding new users.
On ecosystem fund, I think you are talking about something else because as per author’s comment, 90K $OP allocated for ecosystem project is sitting in the treasury.
padzank:
Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90,000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives.
We obviously dont want to spend the token furiously but our goal was to understand why its not being used to give a jump start to a new solution developed by the team. This was asked twice but we did not get an answer.
I understand that Overtime did not exist during Phase 0 and when reviewing this proposal we considered Overtime as an independent solution and that is why we are not talking about complete Phase 0 proposal. This is how I see it, an innovative protocol build by team with dedicated fund set aside for ecosystem growth.
Third point was co-incentives. Co-incentives are proposal and protocol specific and I tried to get my doubt clarified, twice.
OPUser:
when can we expect more info on this ?
After not getting a clear answer on the forum, I reached out to the author via DM to collect more information so that we can make an informed decision.
removing text as team might not want to make the detail public. summary is that information was provided on 30% allocation but co-incentives were still not clear
I see some people think I am against the protocol and attacking me. What I would like to insist is that, we are mixing the credibility of protocol with the recommendation of this proposal, we spent significant time reviewing this proposal and looked at it from all angle, one reason for publishing recommendation at the last was because I was waiting for additional information to my DM.
I believe that all proposal should get a fair review and chance to participate in this gov and we should welcome them to Optimism ecosystem through this governance funding. Apart from spending significant amount of time on the forum, usually I reach out to proposal’s author via DM and on discord to understand their side and to collect more information with a goal that final decision is not made in a hurry or on the basis on half-knowledge. Help me understand, what else I should have done from my side.
Like Julian from @ScaleWeb3 has mentioned, we are all supportive of Overtime and believe that its goals are aligned with Optimism and echo his view on resubmitting proposal in 2 weeks than rushing things and setting bad precedence.
Pretty baffled by the committee’s recommendation and honestly think this spurs an important convers…
Pretty baffled by the committee’s recommendation and honestly think this spurs an important conversation around improving Optimism’s governance system. The summary so far is that a popular Optimism-native protocol - with a unique usecase on the network, that’s already working well and has strong community support - gets turned down based on criticisms and “data” pulled from god knows where that simply doesn’t hold true. Moreover, all questions and concerns have been answered well by the Thales team IMO. I don’t understand the reasoning at play in this committee’s recommendation and hope to see them change their view. In any case, I look forward to the committee’s response to @OPGovWatch’s question and the Thales team’s commentaries.
Their recommendation on Overnight was similarly baffling. [REVIEW] [GF: Phase 1 Proposal] Ove…
Their recommendation on Overnight was similarly baffling. [REVIEW] [GF: Phase 1 Proposal] Overnight.fi Governance Fund: Phase 1 This is the GF Phase 1 Proposal from the Overnight.fi Protocol. The goal is to help push the adoption of Overnight.fi innovative product line (yield generating stablecoin USD+ and delta-neutral ETS strategies) on the Optimism network. Project name: Overnight.fi Author name and contact info: Maxim Ermilov @wmermus, can be contacted through Telegram I understand that I will be required to provide additional KYC information to the Optimism Foundation to receive this grant: Yes L 2 recipient addr… They rejected all four proposals this cycle whereas Committee A recommended “yes” for 3 / 4 , but only with a few sentences for each. This doesn’t look good at all.
katie: OPGovWatch:
Committee A recommended “yes” for 3/4, but only with a few sentences for each. This doesn’t look good at all.
Keeping our recommendations brief is intentional. The purpose of committees was to limit the workload on other delegates. As a delegate myself, I don’t find posts that repeat the components of a proposal helpful. We keep our recommendations short and concise in order to limit the burden of information overload on fellow delegates.
Overtime Markets is an outstanding project with a terrific, supportive team. As an early adopter an…
Overtime Markets is an outstanding project with a terrific, supportive team. As an early adopter and daily user of both Optimism and Overtime Markets, I ask that you further synergize to help you both grow and thrive! I’m very optimistic you’ll see what I see in Overtime (and Thales)! TheWiseBull.eth
danthales: Idk what this is trying to say, but if its about the Phase 0 grant, well Thales di…
danthales: Idk what this is trying to say, but if its about the Phase 0 grant, well Thales distributed almost 50 % of it, refers to this,with respect to the allocation of phase 0 padzank: Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90 , 000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet.
We at ScaleWeb 3 would like to share a bit more insight to our (personal) reasoning: Unfortunately…
We at ScaleWeb 3 would like to share a bit more insight to our (personal) reasoning: Unfortunately, there was little time for feedback and discussion of this proposal as our committee took it over on a short notice. That said, I, Julian, personally looked into this proposal probably longer than into any other on this forum as we saw great value but were keen to understand the details. First of, all committee members shared that they appreciate the Thales team‘s contributions, and have acknowledged the value proposition of Overtime and value-add of the current proposal on multiple occasions. (In fact, a committee member is satisfied enough to vote Yes. Prob you‘ll hear that reasoning as well soon.) Let‘s dive in to the content and why we‘d recommend a slight adjustment of the proposal before resubmission in the next cycle in 2 weeks: Fee rebates: We see why they are needed, that they are hard to game and yet we are a bit worried that they may largely accrue to the current powerusers. Consequently, we are supportive of fee rebates but want to see their impact and how well they do in ONBOARDING NEW USERS FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD as that is the suggested KPI that would add tremendous value to Optimism (See first rewards on Overtime) Co-incentives: This was not detailed enough in our opinion as it completely depends on your governance. From a young project, we don‘t expect huge monetary co-incentives but certainty on incentives, potentially a pre-approval from your community to match x% (or not), would help the evaluation of the proposal. Go-to-market & Onboarding of users from Web 2 : The comparison to centralized platforms is great, onboarding of Web 2 users is needed for real, sustainable growth but also a long shot at this early stage. In a comment above you mention web 2 users will learn about web 3 & EVM compatible wallets due to fee rebates (-> better rates on Overtime). If these users are indeed your target audience, you have to do a lot of education, wallet onboarding sessions and much more (also good use of grant money) - we lack a bit of fantasy to see the impact on non-existing crypto user onboarding. Besides that, we initially thought the event focus would include all kinds of online marketing campaigns (also good use of grant funding) but we ultimately came to understand that you want to rather focus on some monetary incentives for markets & competitions. Overall, each of these initiatives is good use of grant funding (and we don’t want to judge the merits of the different initiatives) but there was some detail missing to get a clear picture for the use of funds & onboarding. Traction & Amount Asked: 60 active daily users & almost 950 + unique users are a great achievement for a new Op native project. It‘s important to note though that this behavior has been incentivized with OP and THALES tokens with a loss coverage program & fee rebate program. 300 K Op is a significant amount for a project that’s less than 2 months live (!), especially with somewhat unclear co-incentives, distribution, runway. Distribution: We strongly believe in running short incentive programs (up to 6 months) to learn, improve, potentially create another co-growth proposal. (We mentioned that Thales still has unspent tokens for ecosystem projects as we expect them to be spent & to help other delegates understand the full picture, that there are additional funds that could be utilised before offering a second grant - Yes, we know those are different grants, products & it’s totally fair to ask for a new grant!) besides that, Overtime mentioned some incentives would be committed until they are depleted and it was not possible to have a fixed timed emissions. (Totally true for gas tanks & fee reductions based on usage - potentially should be refillable IF campaign is successful?!) Hence, we looked at your current emission schedule or bi-weekly 8000 OP incentives → 100 . 000 + OP would allow you to run this experiment for 6 months - which is plenty of time to make learnings and draw conclusions to propose even better co-growth initiatives. @danthales @Red thanks for your response and for the additional data. I can only repeat that we all are supportive of Overtime, genuinely liked the proposal and this was a close call where we were also torn between YES & NO. We understand all delegates who are already satisfied and vote YES. However, we recommend NO as we believe reducing the remaining uncertainties, getting buy-in from your community, and slightly adjusting the Ask will make the proposal better, help with future accountability (+ avoid setting a bad precedent), and resubmitting in 2 weeks (!) is the best way to go. Good luck with the vote! :slightly_smiling_face:
OPGovWatch: ScaleWeb3:
Unfortunately, there was little time for feedback and discussion of this proposal as our committee took it over on a short notice.
Respectfully, this proposal was not taken on short notice. This was one of the one of three proposals originally assigned to the committee.
The other two (Curve and Homora) both made last minute changes, had delegates remove their support, and withdrew. This was technically the only proposal the committee was obligated to review.
Hi @danthales and @Red , thank you for providing additional data. Will try to summarize my side on…
Hi @danthales and @Red , thank you for providing additional data. Will try to summarize my side on few question raised here as well as on discord. You are correct, we looked into data and saw that rebates are aligned toward power users and consensus was that we should also focus on on-boarding new users. On ecosystem fund, I think you are talking about something else because as per author’s comment, 90 K $OP allocated for ecosystem project is sitting in the treasury. padzank: Regarding the question around Builders on Thales. The 90 , 000 OP tokens allocated towards community builders on top of Thales remain unallocated in the Thales treasury since there was not much initiatives yet. These will remain reserved as future incentives for community builders willing to work on structured products for Thales and/or alternate front-ends and similar initiatives. We obviously dont want to spend the token furiously but our goal was to understand why its not being used to give a jump start to a new solution developed by the team. This was asked twice but we did not get an answer. I understand that Overtime did not exist during Phase 0 and when reviewing this proposal we considered Overtime as an independent solution and that is why we are not talking about complete Phase 0 proposal. This is how I see it, an innovative protocol build by team with dedicated fund set aside for ecosystem growth. Third point was co-incentives. Co-incentives are proposal and protocol specific and I tried to get my doubt clarified, twice. OPUser: when can we expect more info on this ? After not getting a clear answer on the forum, I reached out to the author via DM to collect more information so that we can make an informed decision. image 1747 × 1763 297 KB removing text as team might not want to make the detail public. summary is that information was provided on 30 % allocation but co-incentives were still not clear image 1425 × 726 71 . 7 KB I see some people think I am against the protocol and attacking me. What I would like to insist is that, we are mixing the credibility of protocol with the recommendation of this proposal, we spent significant time reviewing this proposal and looked at it from all angle, one reason for publishing recommendation at the last was because I was waiting for additional information to my DM. I believe that all proposal should get a fair review and chance to participate in this gov and we should welcome them to Optimism ecosystem through this governance funding. Apart from spending significant amount of time on the forum, usually I reach out to proposal’s author via DM and on discord to understand their side and to collect more information with a goal that final decision is not made in a hurry or on the basis on half-knowledge. Help me understand, what else I should have done from my side. Like Julian from @ScaleWeb 3 has mentioned, we are all supportive of Overtime and believe that its goals are aligned with Optimism and echo his view on resubmitting proposal in 2 weeks than rushing things and setting bad precedence.
On DM-s I just gave an example (still non-public unannounced FIFA World Cup promotion) on how the …
On DM-s I just gave an example (still non-public unannounced FIFA World Cup promotion) on how the 30 % allocation towards Event Driven promotions would look like to support our claims of it being a powerful tool in this type of industry. The other point of DM is reassuring that any OP token emissions are matched with THALES tokens, but that it is better to not throw numbers before it’s time, because it is impossible to find a perfect balance of co-matching before it’s time to deploy the programs. Co-incentive numbers we say now may not be in balance when the time comes to deploy the said programs, and this claim is in benefit to the guidelines of co-matching and should not be seen as uncertainty. I am kind off confused how you folks managed to see it under that lens. The 90 k OP allocation is reserved as grants for third party builders on top of Thales Protocol, and that is how it is cemented ever since Phase 0 allocation. We take our commitments to Optimism Governance seriously and would feel like doing bad by the community of builders and evading Phase 0 promises by using these 90 , 000 OP tokens towards a product that is not built by Third Party Community builders but by the core team. Again, confuses me that this also is taken as a flaw in our commitments instead of a positive precedent. Hope this gives more context to both @OPUser and @ScaleWeb 3 messages above.
AxlVaz: padzank:
The 90k OP allocation is reserved as grants for third party builders on top of Thales Protocol, and that is how it is cemented ever since Phase 0 allocation. We take our commitments to Optimism Governance seriously and would feel like doing bad by the community of builders and evading Phase 0 promises by using these 90,000 OP tokens towards a product that is not built by Third Party Community builders but by the core team. Again, confuses me that this also is taken as a flaw in our commitments instead of a positive precedent.
This is really good of the team.
But I also understand that they used the tokens for incentives from the same phase 0, to incentivize Overtime.
padzank:
The 15,000 OP (matched with 15,000 THALES tokens) funds used to short-term trial incentive program for Overtime were used from the highlighted 360,000 OP allocation towards Thales Products Users (thalesmarket.io Trading Incentives) that were still not committed from Thales treasury by the governance structure by the time Overtime launched. These funds were originally intended towards thalesmarket.io future Trading Competitions, new Referral Program promotions, Exotic Markets product growth next to the already committed AMM Trading Incentives and Gamified Staking trading incentives that take over the majority of those 360,000 OP tokens. Our Governance Structure agreed to take out 15,000 OP tokens towards Overtime from the original allocation for this trial as Overtime is held at the highest potential for global market fit.
Thales has matched all OP incentives to date with 1 to 1 THALES incentives in dollar value at t…
Thales has matched all OP incentives to date with 1 to 1 THALES incentives in dollar value at the time. Given that’s more than 400 k OP tokens distributed already, we likely felt there is some empiric trust already established, as we are known good actors within this ecosystem, and that we dont have to throw in specific numbers as we already said we will be co-incentivizing. But as that seems very important to committee members, I am happy to commit that we are to match all Overtime OP incentives with equal dollar value of THALES tokens taking a 7 days twap dollar value.
ScaleWeb 3 : Unfortunately, there was little time for feedback and discussion of this proposal…
ScaleWeb 3 : Unfortunately, there was little time for feedback and discussion of this proposal as our committee took it over on a short notice. Respectfully, this proposal was not taken on short notice. This was one of the one of three proposals originally assigned to the committee. The other two (Curve and Homora) both made last minute changes, had delegates remove their support, and withdrew. This was technically the only proposal the committee was obligated to review.
OPGovWatch: Committee A recommended “yes” for 3 / 4 , but only with a few sentences for each.…
OPGovWatch: Committee A recommended “yes” for 3 / 4 , but only with a few sentences for each. This doesn’t look good at all. Keeping our recommendations brief is intentional. The purpose of committees was to limit the workload on other delegates. As a delegate myself, I don’t find posts that repeat the components of a proposal helpful. We keep our recommendations short and concise in order to limit the burden of information overload on fellow delegates.
OPGovWatch: I think it could potentially be helpful to take more of a hybrid approach where you provide a short TLDR with a link to a more detailed review of the proposal.
That way someone who just wants a thumbs up or thumbs down can get it and anyone looking for more details on how you arrived at you conclusions has that option.
As I mentioned in Discord today, I think it’s important to make sure that protocols feel their work was understood, accurately represented, and fairly evaluated. Especially in the context of a “no” recommendation. I think this would help.
This could also help the two committees to ensure there is a reasonable degree of consistency in their evaluations so the current delta in their approval rates (currently 75% for Committee A vs 33% for Committee B) doesn’t become more egregious.
padzank: The 90 k OP allocation is reserved as grants for third party builders on top of Thal…
padzank: The 90 k OP allocation is reserved as grants for third party builders on top of Thales Protocol, and that is how it is cemented ever since Phase 0 allocation. We take our commitments to Optimism Governance seriously and would feel like doing bad by the community of builders and evading Phase 0 promises by using these 90 , 000 OP tokens towards a product that is not built by Third Party Community builders but by the core team. Again, confuses me that this also is taken as a flaw in our commitments instead of a positive precedent. This is really good of the team. But I also understand that they used the tokens for incentives from the same phase 0 , to incentivize Overtime. padzank: The 15 , 000 OP (matched with 15 , 000 THALES tokens) funds used to short-term trial incentive program for Overtime were used from the highlighted 360 , 000 OP allocation towards Thales Products Users (thalesmarket.io Trading Incentives) that were still not committed from Thales treasury by the governance structure by the time Overtime launched. These funds were originally intended towards thalesmarket.io future Trading Competitions, new Referral Program promotions, Exotic Markets product growth next to the already committed AMM Trading Incentives and Gamified Staking trading incentives that take over the majority of those 360 , 000 OP tokens. Our Governance Structure agreed to take out 15 , 000 OP tokens towards Overtime from the original allocation for this trial as Overtime is held at the highest potential for global market fit.
Because phase 0 allocation has been 50 % distributed already with the remaining allocation reser…
Because phase 0 allocation has been 50 % distributed already with the remaining allocation reserved for other buckets long before Overtime came to life Who is to say that we wont try to reallocate more of remaining OP tokens towards Overtime? We strongly believe in Overtime and you better believe we will try our earnest to make it a huge success story for both Thales and Optimism. 300 k OP tokens ask was made with the aim to avoid contention for smth that is clearly a promising product. I am not making a case that 300 k is a trivial amount, but so many projects with much less to show in both traction and aligned interests have been endorsed, and you are throwing a fight against allies here. Many chains are eager to have Overtime and have reached out, but I speak at least for myself in saying that I want to maintain it Optimism native for the foreseeable future. However, we have a governance in place that is watching this proposal very closely, so I feel some committee members should zoom out a bit from their typical poorly written NPC AI questions and consider the community’s sentiment, PR and the bussiness side of their recommendations. Respectfully, we went above and beyond with details in this proposal and in replying to your questions, so I dont feel there is value in more of the same arguments. I will leave you to your best judgement.
I think it could potentially be helpful to take more of a hybrid approach where you provide a short…
I think it could potentially be helpful to take more of a hybrid approach where you provide a short TLDR with a link to a more detailed review of the proposal. That way someone who just wants a thumbs up or thumbs down can get it and anyone looking for more details on how you arrived at you conclusions has that option. As I mentioned in Discord today, I think it’s important to make sure that protocols feel their work was understood, accurately represented, and fairly evaluated. Especially in the context of a “no” recommendation. I think this would help. This could also help the two committees to ensure there is a reasonable degree of consistency in their evaluations so the current delta in their approval rates (currently 75 % for Committee A vs 33 % for Committee B) doesn’t become more egregious.
OPGovWatch: This could also help the two committees to ensure there is a reasonable degree of …
OPGovWatch: This could also help the two committees to ensure there is a reasonable degree of consistency in their evaluations so the current delta in their approval rates (currently 75 % for Committee A vs 33 % for Committee B) doesn’t become more egregious. There is no requirement that the DeFi Committees have similar approval rates or that even such a metric should concern people. It’s very plausible their approval/denial ratios are different because they’re evaluating different projects. Calling differences in outcomes “egregious” is just an invented metric used to discredit the work of one or both committees.
OPGovWatch: There is no requirement, you are right. I disagree it should not be a cause for concern. Right now it looks far easier to get passed through Committee A than Committee B though admittedly we’re working on a small sample size at the moment.
If we use the Shadow Committee as a control, they seem to be far more in alignment (80% approve) with Committee A (75% approve) than Committee B (33% approve). My fear would be that they are evaluating proposals differently enough that it is driving substantially different outcomes, but it is difficult to evaluate without more line of sight into Committee A’s underlying thinking.
I read this threat from beginning to end and I’am puzzled and pretty disappointed how you end up th…
I read this threat from beginning to end and I’am puzzled and pretty disappointed how you end up thinking requested amount is too high for Overtime product and rejected maybe the best written and deserved project on OP. I mean I do not get what they need to provide you to get additional funding ? One of a kind product which does not existing anywhere else on blockchain, they give you growth numbers which no other project has and you are simply questioning how the numbers would be if there is no incentives at first place ? really ? I thought all purpose of OP token was to drive new users and volume I think this decision is a disgrace for OP platform and you guys really should think again about how your committee give their decisions and what their real intentions are
There is no requirement, you are right. I disagree it should not be a cause for concern. Right now …
There is no requirement, you are right. I disagree it should not be a cause for concern. Right now it looks far easier to get passed through Committee A than Committee B though admittedly we’re working on a small sample size at the moment. If we use the Shadow Committee as a control, they seem to be far more in alignment ( 80 % approve) with Committee A ( 75 % approve) than Committee B ( 33 % approve). My fear would be that they are evaluating proposals differently enough that it is driving substantially different outcomes, but it is difficult to evaluate without more line of sight into Committee A’s underlying thinking.
StrategicReserve: Right now it looks far easier to get passed through Committee A than Committee B
It’s already been explained that the committees evaluate different projects, so divergent outcomes are not unusual at all.
If we use the Shadow Committee as a control
Why would we do that? It’s not an official committee and it’s outcomes are as independent as any other committee. Do you want people to evaluate proposals objectively? Or do you want mandated approval ratios for all committees?
My fear would be that they are evaluating proposals differently enough that it is driving substantially different outcomes
Yes, we know. You think DeFi Committee A’s reviews are too short. You think DeFI Committee B’s reviews are wrong. You’ve said so publically here, on twitter, and on the discord.
twitter.com
OP Gov Watch
@OPGovWatch
so there is a volunteer committee writing more thoughtful proposal reviews than the paid ones? yikes
they better step it up. twitter.com/jack_anorak/st…
jack-anorak @jack_anorak
started publishing reviews of OP governance proposals as part of a shadow defi committee with some friends from synthetix and beethoven x—and @TWlTTERGM these proposals need more work but it's worth the effort to get them to another level—big $ at stake https://t.co/wejRAZOgvt
3:07 AM - 25 Sep 2022
I don’t think the statistical issue is relevant at all, and pressing it just makes it look like you’re trying to discredit them with bogus statistics.
Voted yes - This was a tough one because it is against the Defi Committee C recommendation and I am…
Voted yes - This was a tough one because it is against the Defi Committee C recommendation and I am not super familiar with the Overtime platform or sports betting. However, I feel like sports and gaming is another very undervalued sector of defi. The amount requested is very reasonable and the token distribution plan is well thought out. I feel this project has the potential to attract new, non native crypto users and drive overall ecosystem growth. I am in support of this proposal.
Right now it looks far easier to get passed through Committee A than Committee B It’s already bee…
Right now it looks far easier to get passed through Committee A than Committee B It’s already been explained that the committees evaluate different projects, so divergent outcomes are not unusual at all. If we use the Shadow Committee as a control Why would we do that? It’s not an official committee and it’s outcomes are as independent as any other committee. Do you want people to evaluate proposals objectively? Or do you want mandated approval ratios for all committees? My fear would be that they are evaluating proposals differently enough that it is driving substantially different outcomes Yes, we know. You think DeFi Committee A’s reviews are too short. You think DeFI Committee B’s reviews are wrong. You’ve said so publically here, on twitter, and on the discord. twitter.com OP Gov Watch @OPGovWatch so there is a volunteer committee writing more thoughtful proposal reviews than the paid ones? yikes they better step it up. twitter.com/jack_anorak/st… jack-anorak @jack_anorak started publishing reviews of OP governance proposals as part of a shadow defi committee with some friends from synthetix and beethoven x—and @TWlTTERGM these proposals need more work but it's worth the effort to get them to another level—big $ at stake https://t.co/wejRAZOgvt 3 : 07 AM - 25 Sep 2022 I don’t think the statistical issue is relevant at all, and pressing it just makes it look like you’re trying to discredit them with bogus statistics.
Friend, once again I think we will have to agree to disagree. I think it is indeed a problem if the…
Friend, once again I think we will have to agree to disagree. I think it is indeed a problem if the numbers lead proposers begin to believe one committee will likely pass them and another will not. I suggested more details from Committee A’s reviews as a way of mitigating that and hopefully driving more consistency in the process. As usual, you disagree. Fair enough. On a separate note, it is very exciting to have my first reply guy. Truly an honor!
I’m voting For, against the committee recommendation on this one. I believe sports betting is an un…
I’m voting For, against the committee recommendation on this one. I believe sports betting is an underexplored area for both crypto in general and Optimism in particular. Overtime has established some product-market fit, but it’s nowhere near enough so I hope to see much more aggressive market to normies outside of crypto. The timing is right with the greatest sporting event upcoming, which makes me lean on the side of For. However, I acknowledge that the committee’s concerns are very valid, and I’m obviously unimpressed by Thales’ (lack of) execution of the previous grant. This will be my final “benefit of doubt” vote for the community.
Completely unique native product? Good volume? Actual new users? Enormous potential? -Defi committe…
Completely unique native product? Good volume? Actual new users? Enormous potential? -Defi committee C vote no. GG OP governance.
I think Scaleweb 3 ’s last explanation is directionally correct in emphasizing experimentation and …
I think Scaleweb 3 ’s last explanation is directionally correct in emphasizing experimentation and validation but makes a few key errors that I think lead to an opportunity to make suggestions on how committees can go about their work. I’ll take this opportunity to show where I think this review is lacking context or due consideration. All quotes from Scaleweb 3 ’s explanation of his committee’s conclusions. Fee rebates. we are a bit worried that they may largely accrue to the current power users…want to see their impact and how well they do in onboarding new users If I understand this correctly, the fear is that Overtime will not deliver on getting new users to the door and thus that rewards are recycled by current players. Here’s the thing: you can’t evaluate this grant the way you would liquidity mining. To explain why, I’ll start by highlighting a fundamental misunderstanding of the protocol: If pricing & fees are already better than on centralized platforms and aren’t holding back adoption This is incorrect and is the first presumption that should have been validated in the course of assessing the grant. Overtime have demonstrated that fee rewards are required to make the protocol economically competitive at both the small and large bet level with the objectives of bootstrapping 1 ) volume growth and 2 ) user growth. The question isn’t whether organic user growth is achievable without rewards; user growth demonstrably requires fee rewards due to the need to compete with centralized book spreads before a threshold of userbase and volume is met. Determining this threshold isn’t straightforward but even getting a rough idea is essential for understanding what’s at stake. When asked, the Overtime team said that they can be economically competitive at $ 1 mm weekly trade volume, which translates to an achievable but not easy 4 x increase in use (this would also roughly get to 240 daily traders). In other words, what Overtime are asking for is a textbook example of a catalytic grant. The subsidy ensures competitiveness until enough scale is reached for the protocol’s economics to independently continue to attract users. It is unlike, for instance, liquidity mining, where what was initially uncompetitive in most cases becomes uncompetitive/undifferentiated again and the target users go somewhere else. The position that you’re not sure about the strength of Overtime’s adoption because they’ve used some incentives so far is like saying “yes, the plane looks well-built…let’s see it fly without the wings.” The fact that the World Cup is happening next month, as is the capability to let LPs feed into the AMMs, means that withholding a grant for three weeks is setting Overtime up to fail because they simply can’t get the competitiveness they need themselves. More thorough DD would also have encouraged Overtime to reveal the source of this competitiveness, which the Shadow Committee did (and resulted in that table being generated), or determine what sort of balance between scale and volume would have to be reached to get to that independent competitiveness (answer: you need lifers and about $ 1 mm weekly volume). Go-to-market and Onboarding If these users are indeed your target audience, you have to do a lot of education, wallet onboarding sessions and much more (also good use of grant money) - we lack a bit of fantasy to see the impact on non-existing crypto user onboarding. A cursory look reveals an interesting fact about sports bettors (and gamblers in general): they are among the most crypto-savvy populations out there. Centralized gambling sites have been taking crypto from wallets for at least twice as long as the ScaleWeb 3 Twitter account has existed. As far as new onboarders to crypto-based betting go, they’re some of the lowest-hanging (and most valuable!) fruit you can get. They also are a very unique kind of userbase, which requires a vertical-specific GTM – i.e., you need to follow the expertise of people who know what matters to these players, and a lot of it in this case has to do with pricing in an arguably commoditized product. You also want to go to where the majority are and solicit participation from some of the largest players. An experienced sports bettor himself, Spreek, who works closely with Overtime, will tell you this. Even though Scaleweb 3 hasn’t intuited this fact despite his experience with prediction markets (which have also been taking crypto for years), it’s still important to be able to substantiate your claim with a question or two to the proposing team. Co-incentives This was not detailed enough in our opinion as it completely depends on your governance. From a young project, we don‘t expect huge monetary co-incentives but certainty on incentives, potentially a pre-approval from your community to match x% (or not), would help the evaluation of the proposal. I’ve been on this for weeks so I won’t belabor the point, but I continue to question the need for too much definition up front when there is inherent uncertainty in Thales’ need to build up their own resources and ensure an appropriate backstop for their operations. I’d go so far as to say that it’s on committees to have proposal-specific explanations for why they want to see co-incentives if they’re going to vote one way or another on them. A final point, because I think we ought to hold ourselves to a higher standard when assessing these proposals (after all, these are enormous grants) – Overall, each of these initiatives is good use of grant funding (and we don’t want to judge the merits of the different initiatives) but there was some detail missing to get a clear picture for the use of funds & onboarding. Unfortunately, there was little time for feedback and discussion of this proposal as our committee took it over on a short notice. That said, I, Julian, personally looked into this proposal probably longer than into any other on this forum as we saw great value but were keen to understand the details. Scaleweb 3 says that he conducted exhaustive due diligence but also didn’t have time for basic details to be surfaced. You can’t have it both ways. Get enough information to make a review or punt on the recommendation. Overtime posted their review at the very start of this voting cycle, and they were the only proposal initially assigned to Scaleweb’s committee. If they find that they didn’t have enough time to manage even this proposal, that’s a problem. A final note: this is not an attack on Scaleweb or Committee B. I am (and have been) trying to demonstrate the kind of work and understanding I believe ought to go into these recommendations. The stakes are high.
Re Fee rebates: link was provided that showed that top 10 users accrued more than 50 % of fee re…
Re Fee rebates: link was provided that showed that top 10 users accrued more than 50 % of fee rebates in first weeks. The quote you shared re pricing/fee competitiveness to centralized platforms was one of our questions during review before we made the recommendation. Hence, exactly what you ask us to do :joy: Re World Cup: 50 K Op was reserved. This is likely a great invest for OT and Op as mentioned. We made sure that our recommendation would not jeopardise onboarding. Re adoption: we shared our belief that prediction markets and especially sports betting are likely one of the early killer apps. Early traction is good. 60 unique active users aka addresses is still a small amount - especially with active incentives. That said, good proposal, happy to see the co-incentives got clarified after our recommendation ( 100 % matching :+ 1 :t 3 :) and looking forward to see great adoption in the coming months. Edit: In our opinion, a small difference in assessments led to different recommendations. Our committee C was looking for a bit more specifics/details on some parts of the proposal and generally more inclined to support grants with a clear scope for <= 6 months to evaluate and potentially lead to follow-up grants whereas Jack & his committee prefer to give teams a bit more slack. We wouldn’t say approach 1 or 2 is necessarily better for the growth of the Optimism ecosystem but the former helps with accountability.
I’m abstaining from this proposal. I’m not familiar with sports betting at all but understand the c…
I’m abstaining from this proposal. I’m not familiar with sports betting at all but understand the counterpoints in the thread that this could be a highly underexplored area which is why I’m not following the committee recommendation of no. However, I don’t feel strongly enough to specifically go against the committee’s recommendation especially given my lack of knowledge in the sports betting space.
I am voting against this proposal following DeFi C committee’s recommendation. I see many delegates…
I am voting against this proposal following DeFi C committee’s recommendation. I see many delegates voted against the committee’s recommendation here so I took some time to read the thread in detail and I find myself to agree with the notes pointed out by @OPUser in the committee review. Specifically the fee rebates comments and the fact that the same team has already received a 900 k OP grant from Phase 0 .
[Final] Voting: Against Following our own DeFi C committee recommendation. We (as community) unders…
[Final] Voting: Against Following our own DeFi C committee recommendation. We (as community) understand the add-value that the Overtime team thinks can bring into Optimism regards sports user base. But the project receiving a large amount months ago was an important point in our decision.
jackanorak: So we’re clear on this:
Does this mean that if this proposal hadn’t passed, you would not have voted for the proposal with a ‘slight adjustment’ in the ask suggested by your own committee? Because a vote next cycle won’t have changed the fact that Overtime had gotten a Governance grant.
Context from the committee’s review, emphasis mine:
However, we recommend NO as we believe reducing the remaining uncertainties, getting buy-in from your community, and slightly adjusting the Ask will make the proposal better, help with future accountability (+ avoid setting a bad precedent), and resubmitting in 2 weeks (!) is the best way to go.
So we’re clear on this: Does this mean that if this proposal hadn’t passed, you would not have vote…
So we’re clear on this: Does this mean that if this proposal hadn’t passed, you would not have voted for the proposal with a ‘slight adjustment’ in the ask suggested by your own committee? Because a vote next cycle won’t have changed the fact that Overtime had gotten a Governance grant. Context from the committee’s review, emphasis mine: However, we recommend NO as we believe reducing the remaining uncertainties, getting buy-in from your community, and slightly adjusting the Ask will make the proposal better, help with future accountability (+ avoid setting a bad precedent), and resubmitting in 2 weeks (!) is the best way to go.
@padzank can you provide a Telegram handle or other contact method so the Optimism team can get in …
@padzank can you provide a Telegram handle or other contact method so the Optimism team can get in touch about paying out this grant! Feel free to DM or email palash@optimism.io
