I had a deep conversation last night with someone who was not a minter of BAYC, but spent maybe 300 + ETH buying (not flipping) apes. He was a holder of significant ApeCoin though he kept his holdings private while participating and choosing to quietly stake (not to me).
I think we have an issue glorifying early holders, especially minters. We sing praise to those who made life changing money (got their mortgage paid off etc), either by buying very early or flipping. However, how does that benefit the club and make us all stronger? For me, it should be how does the holder make owning BAYC more appealing. Could be by participation or the value they add just being in the Club.
Though @Gerry and I may not see eye to eye on everything he made a valid statement about saying MAYC should not be equal to BAYC. I agree with this statement. I noticed BAYC got 15 minutes earlier access this time to Apefest tickets, a minor but still a step in the right direction.
For ApeCoin, this narrative exists somewhat and I do agree we should honour those who put in hard work and grit for the DAO, but conversely new members, new non BAYC/MAYC nft communities, such as Mocaverse and grass roots delegations like Bulls on the Block should be celebrated.
We also need to better help those who can add value come in and maybe boldly suggest they partner with someone familiar with how AIPs get over the goal line. It is a fine line between earning your place and gatekeeping.
When people respond specify if your comment is about BAYC/MAYC or ApeCoin.
The author reflects on a conversation with a significant holder of ApeCoin and their thoughts on the glorification of early minters in the Bored Ape Yacht Club (BAYC) community. They emphasize the importance of holders adding value to the club and suggest ways to make ownership more appealing. Furthermore, they discuss the differentiation between BAYC and Mutant Ape Yacht Club (MAYC) and mention the need to honor hardworking individuals in the DAO. They also highlight the necessity of celebrating new members and suggest ways to bring in valuable partners without gatekeeping.
furiousanger: bigbull:
someone familiar with how AIPs get over the goal line
Thanks for the post.
Have to push back again (today) on something you’re saying - no body knows how to get AIPs passed - there is no winning formula! Agree with all other points made.
MemeBrains: bigbull:
We sing praise to those who made life changing money
Agreed, and every time we do this it creates an impression that ‘getting rich’ is what drives us all to the community, which discredits those who are here to build and move the ecosystem forward
bigbull:
MAYC should not be equal to BAYC. I agree with this statement.
Last week was the first time I felt shamed for owning a MAYC. It was a terrible feeling
It it were to happen too often I would sell it asap. 99% of people are super welcoming in the ecosystem for MAYC/BAYC equally. The last things a new MAYC hodler wants is to feel shamed after dropping $10k++ on an NFT. There’s some great contributors with MAYC and it would be a big loss to turn on them and make them feel bad for not having the cash for an OG Ape.
TheFatherOfAllStorms: bigbull:
had a deep conversation last night with someone who was not a minter of BAYC, but spent maybe 300+ ETH buying (not flipping) apes. He was a holder of significant ApeCoin though he kept his holdings private while participating and choosing to quietly stake (not to me).
I think we have an issue glorifying early holders, especially minters. We sing praise to those who made life changing money (got their mortgage paid off etc), either by buying very early or flipping. However, how does that benefit the club and make us all stronger? For me, it should be how does the holder make owning BAYC more appealing. Could be by participation or the value they add just being in the Club.
Though @Gerry and I may not see eye to eye on everything he made a valid statement about saying MAYC should not be equal to BAYC. I agree with this statement. I noticed BAYC got 15 minutes earlier access this time to Apefest tickets, a minor but still a step in the right direction.
For ApeCoin, this narrative exists somewhat and I do agree we should honour those who put in hard work and grit for the DAO, but conversely new members, new non BAYC/MAYC nft communities, such as Mocaverse and grass roots delegations like Bulls on the Block should be celebrated.
We also need to better help those who can add value come in and maybe boldly suggest they partner with someone familiar with how AIPs get over the goal line. It is a fine line between earning your place and gatekeeping.
When people respond specify if your comment is about BAYC/MAYC or ApeCoin.
I don’t think No one saying its exactly the same at the BAYC community, not sure why its even relevant to Apecoin such thought at all. BAYC got much more apecoins, tons of it and possibility to do much more thing with it earlier, like many sold it right away above 20 dollars and literally opened businesses!
Meanwile we can not compare rich to disabled with bills, we can not compare jobless with a lot of time to ones who strugle to make it by the ends of the month working on several jobs or otherways they cant take care of their family. We can not compare the folk with entire team of shillers and secretaries and hose keepers hired with single person who actually have to do all by themselfs and on top to take care of othres physically or else.
No one is in the same situation. We have to respect those who buyild this regardless of the struggle they went thjrough or going throug and had less time here. We can not prioritise those who can pay it off or had more time because they had less to do in their physical life daily. Its like comparing someone just complicated postpartum with some side rich member of family who had time to post the baby pictures on social like he did all the job and now he is sleepy looking for validation because he had more money to get a BAYC while she sold MAYC to cover surgery bills and some, while no one will know what kind of other struggle that person even been through; because she is not loud and focus on actual work when can.
I totally agree with your points. It’s important to value what current members bring to the communi…
I totally agree with your points. It’s important to value what current members bring to the community and celebrate everyone’s contributions, old and new. Encouraging collaboration and fresh ideas is key.
I think we need to stop putting BAYC/MAYC members on a pedestal.
Yes, they have place in our ecosys…
I think we need to stop putting BAYC/MAYC members on a pedestal.
Yes, they have place in our ecosystem, and yes some of these people are incredibly talented and can do wildly amazing things for us. However, every time we glorify them we are inadvertently and/or subconsciously telling people that are not BAYC/MAYC members that in order to be a part of or be successful in ApeCoin DAO you need to own one.
In order to make the DAO successful we need a combination of OG members, BAYC/MAYC, and other non-yuga related members contributing and building up the DAO. The DAO will stagnate if we don’t start encourage more non-BAYC/MAYC members and start encouraging our newest community members to help bring forth their ideas to table.
Don’t dismiss good advice from an unlikely source.
bigbull:
someone familiar with how AIPs get over the goal line
Thanks for the post.
Have to …
bigbull:
someone familiar with how AIPs get over the goal line
Thanks for the post.
Have to push back again (today) on something you’re saying - no body knows how to get AIPs passed - there is no winning formula! Agree with all other points made.
I really appreciated your post and the subject matter. I am brand new to the Apecoin community. I d…
I really appreciated your post and the subject matter. I am brand new to the Apecoin community. I don’t own a Bored Ape or Mutant Ape. I’d buy a BAYC if I had $ 50 K but I don’t. I have, however, been in the web 3 ecosystem for about 6 years, was one of the lead facilitators for CityDAO for the past three years, hold a JD and two masters, and am three years into a Ph.D. in sociology of the metaverse. I believe in the value of incentives (i.e. early access to tickets) and other benefits to holders of select NFTs, but I think that seniority is slightly different, albeit no less important.
I came to Apecoin on the recommendation of a friend, @MemeBrains who had nothing but good things to say about this community. What I’ve seen so far has been vibrant, thoughtful and supportive, well-organized and efficient, developing new ideas and driving creativity forward, which is inspiring. I hope that even without the funds required to purchase an NFT, I can demonstrate positive value. For that, ApeCoin DAO is crucial, and seniority in the DAO means a lot to me, as these people have been active parts of the community and understand how this micro-society functions effectively.
Seniority in societal and business structures is, in some ways, a very web 2 value system and, as with Chesterton’s Fence and second-order thinking, it’s important that web 3 doesn’t seek to disrupt traditional hierarchies just because they’re traditional. In society, seniority often means authority and (hopefully) wisdom from accrued years of experience. In business, it’s largely the same. However, as we all know, seniority sometimes leads to stagnancy and a refusal to pass on power.
In this respect, I believe those who came early and stayed have demonstrated a commitment to the project and serve as attraction for the DAO. When I say attraction I mean, for example, that I am here because I am attracted to what I see in the project, which is to say the community, not because of advertisements, marketing or promotions. I love the web 3 values of decentralization, transparency, user control, accountability, security, privacy, interoperability, economic inclusion, community governance, censorship resistance and fairness. People who work towards those values over time demonstrate that they’re not just pretty words used to sell products and services.
One of the challenges I’ve seen in DAOs and web 3 communities is that it’s possible to buy into positions of influence, if not authority. Whales and those can afford expensive NFTs can enter into a community without needing to prove their commitment or social capital. However, at the same time, DAOs provide the mobility to create proposals, join and lead teams, and enter into positions of responsibility without needing a large initial buy in of funds. For this, ApeCoin DAO serves a very valuable purpose. For me, overall, seniority with web 3 attributes and positive involvement over time matters more than seniority of title, or where someone has held a financial position for a long time without the same level of involvement. Thanks for your topic!
MemeBrains: davivi:
been in the web3 ecosystem for about 6 years, was one of the lead facilitators for CityDAO for the past three years, hold a JD and two masters, and am three years into a Ph.D. in sociology of the metaverse
Welcome David! Glad to see you here on Ape Discourse!
furiousanger: davivi:
three years into a Ph.D. in sociology of the metaverse
Hi David,
Welcome. Had to comment after reading your replies. Specifically the above stood out - LFG!!! Like it’s amazing having the diverse community we have, but we also need highly qualified participants to drive ideas and discussions at community level into areas many of us may never think of.
Glad you’re here.
If the DAO is going to become what we all want it to be, it has to move beyond Yuga.
Apes are key t…
If the DAO is going to become what we all want it to be, it has to move beyond Yuga.
Apes are key to the creation and early growth of the DAO, and having a partner like Yuga committed to building on it is HUGE, but other communities, large and small, need to be welcomed and celebrated just the same.
MemeBrains: VonFrontin:
If the DAO is going to become what we all want it to be, it has to move beyond Yuga.
Apes are key to the creation and early growth of the DAO, and having a partner like Yuga committed to building on it is HUGE, but other communities, large and small, need to be welcomed and celebrated just the same.
100% agreed
The Yuga ecosystem is but a small fraction of the overall ecosystem today, and the ecosystem is continuously growing with the Web2 migration. It would be very shortsighted to set up ‘Yuga only’ guardrails
bigbull:
We sing praise to those who made life changing money
Agreed, and every time we do t…
bigbull:
We sing praise to those who made life changing money
Agreed, and every time we do this it creates an impression that ‘getting rich’ is what drives us all to the community, which discredits those who are here to build and move the ecosystem forward :mechanical_arm:
bigbull:
MAYC should not be equal to BAYC. I agree with this statement.
Last week was the first time I felt shamed for owning a MAYC. It was a terrible feeling :cry:
It it were to happen too often I would sell it asap. 99 % of people are super welcoming in the ecosystem for MAYC/BAYC equally. The last things a new MAYC hodler wants is to feel shamed after dropping $ 10 k++ on an NFT. There’s some great contributors with MAYC and it would be a big loss to turn on them and make them feel bad for not having the cash for an OG Ape.
VonFrontin: Agreed. BAYC/MAYC shouldn’t be PVP. I understand tiered benefits, but at this point, most of us paid silly amounts of money for monkey JPEGs, regardless of tier. Let’s all just appreciate that and build together.
bigbull: MemeBrains:
The last things a new MAYC hodler wants is to feel shamed after dropping $10k++ on an NFT.
It certainly isn’t about someone feeling shamed. Like flying business class vs first class. Both are amazing ways to fly.
If you look from the other perspective, if there is no clear additional benefit why pay 6x the price for a BAYC vs a MAYC.
I have great things to say about MAYC holders and my point still stands imho.
Some areas it is important to overlap, but I think they need to think about somethings that are for BAYC only holders.
Right now one of the benefits was for fat people (like me) as the Hoodies come up wider. Lool. They clearly did some market research.
furiousanger: MemeBrains:
Last week was the first time I felt shamed for owning a MAYC. It was a terrible feeling
This is not cool. And although I do agree with many - MAYC are not equal to BAYC - for me this statement only relates to a very small amount of the benefits we see.
The argument of MAYC/BAYC vs APECOIN vs NEW HOLDERS vs OTHER COMMUNITIES is a very complex one.
As mentioned YUGA are BAYC/MAYC/APECOIN parents - this without doubt elevates their status here imo. Should they be viewed in that exact “pecking order”, probably not, but I genuinely believe those tiers are already here and ingrained right or wrong.
Onto OTHER COMMUNITIES, my view here is we need more people, more ideas, more exchange of solutions and best practices between other DAOs especially, and for those reasons alone I welcome & pray for additional members from as many new places as possible. For me when it becomes an issue is when it’s more of a takeover than facilitating crossover of ideas (and funds etc). This ofc then leads onto the idea CT suggested re fund swapping - at first glance this idea looks beneficial - however, when you realise the DAOs could/will be redacted and the community have no final say we should be careful. A concern is we don’t want to “kill off” the foundations we have all worked so hard for. (Summary - Targeted Expansion is fine and ofc necessary, but as long as this doesn’t mean OG + YUGA members are heavily diluted, and possibly dissolved in the process.)
Great thought provoking discussion @bigbull
VonFrontin:
If the DAO is going to become what we all want it to be, it has to move beyond Yug…
VonFrontin:
If the DAO is going to become what we all want it to be, it has to move beyond Yuga.
Apes are key to the creation and early growth of the DAO, and having a partner like Yuga committed to building on it is HUGE, but other communities, large and small, need to be welcomed and celebrated just the same.
100 % agreed
The Yuga ecosystem is but a small fraction of the overall ecosystem today, and the ecosystem is continuously growing with the Web 2 migration. It would be very shortsighted to set up ‘Yuga only’ guardrails
davivi:
been in the web 3 ecosystem for about 6 years, was one of the lead facilitators for…
davivi:
been in the web 3 ecosystem for about 6 years, was one of the lead facilitators for CityDAO for the past three years, hold a JD and two masters, and am three years into a Ph.D. in sociology of the metaverse
Welcome David! Glad to see you here on Ape Discourse! :gorilla: :mechanical_arm:
Agreed. BAYC/MAYC shouldn’t be PVP. I understand tiered benefits, but at this point, most of us pai…
Agreed. BAYC/MAYC shouldn’t be PVP. I understand tiered benefits, but at this point, most of us paid silly amounts of money for monkey JPEGs, regardless of tier. Let’s all just appreciate that and build together.
MemeBrains:
The last things a new MAYC hodler wants is to feel shamed after dropping $ 10 k++ …
MemeBrains:
The last things a new MAYC hodler wants is to feel shamed after dropping $ 10 k++ on an NFT.
It certainly isn’t about someone feeling shamed. Like flying business class vs first class. Both are amazing ways to fly.
If you look from the other perspective, if there is no clear additional benefit why pay 6 x the price for a BAYC vs a MAYC.
I have great things to say about MAYC holders and my point still stands imho.
Some areas it is important to overlap, but I think they need to think about somethings that are for BAYC only holders.
Right now one of the benefits was for fat people (like me) as the Hoodies come up wider. Lool. They clearly did some market research.
bigbull:
Right now one of the benefits was for fat people (like me) as the Hoodies come up wid…
bigbull:
Right now one of the benefits was for fat people (like me) as the Hoodies come up wider.
Hilarious! Now that’s a benefit I could get behind.
bigbull:
It certainly isn’t about someone feeling shamed. Like flying business class vs first …
bigbull:
It certainly isn’t about someone feeling shamed. Like flying business class vs first class. Both are amazing ways to fly.
I agree with you conceptually. The challenge is that’s now how it would be implemented in reality. In reality, OG Apes would push down Mutants, constantly reminding us of second grade citizenship status as an inner circle joke, forming toxic energy at a time when we need unity. This is exactly what happened to me, and it’s exactly what would happen at larger scale. There’s no way to suddenly introduce separation and perks to OG Apes without simultaneously introducing toxicity towards Mutants.
bigbull:
if there is no clear additional benefit why pay 6 x the price for a BAYC vs a MAYC.
I’m really excited to buy an OG Ape in present market even though there’s no added benefit. I want one because I want one, OG Apes are always going to be OG Apes, and that always has an appeal. Adding unique extra value to OG Apes is an interesting topic, but pushing down Mutants is not.
bigbull:
Right now one of the benefits was for fat people (like me) as the Hoodies come up wider. Lool. They clearly did some market research.
lmao, love the sense of humour :laughing: :heart: :gorilla:
chimperton:
Yuga directly stated when they released mutants that OG apes would get the tier 1…
chimperton:
Yuga directly stated when they released mutants that OG apes would get the tier 1 benefits
Ya and that makes sense, I think that’s fair that first entrants, especially with the higher price tag, would receive better perks. My point is solely on the ‘how it gets implemented, how it gets done’
Cuz there’s a difference between elevating OG Apes vrs pushing down Mutants
chimperton:
Some will think it’s fine, others will strongly disagree.
Yeah it’s def a delica…
chimperton:
Some will think it’s fine, others will strongly disagree.
Yeah it’s def a delicate subject for sure, I get that :heart:
I think it just comes down to being respectful and gentle with the communications and differentiations. The experience I had is hopefully not representative of the upcoming norms :heart: :gorilla:
Forming and maintaining strong community bonds that attract others without creating toxic environme…
Forming and maintaining strong community bonds that attract others without creating toxic environments seems to be a lodestone question in the DAO space. I wonder how many other DAOs out there, if any, have a tiered structure like Apecoin. Yuga’s open definition of “tier 1 ” as opposed to “lower” tiers at least keeps things open for experimentation. Tiers may offer differences in NFT price (which itself is a form of status), governance, incentives, opportunities, and access, among other possible benefits. I agree with @MemeBrains that it’s about how it’s done, rather than whether it’s done.
One thing I learned from years in leadership at CityDAO is that it’s challenging to avoid toxic behavior democratically, without giving a small group authority to ban/kick/exclude certain members, or to censor/police forums. At the end of the day, it’s a trade off between the web 3 values of anonymity and censorship resistance and the importance of maintaining a supportive, encouraging, environment of kindness. There’s certainly a place for innovation and tiered benefits, but no place for making others feel small. The holder of one Apecoin could change the world.
I’ll make one final comment on this thread.
When it comes to Yuga, BAYC is the Tier 1 asset. We h…
I’ll make one final comment on this thread.
When it comes to Yuga, BAYC is the Tier 1 asset. We have seen Yuga exercise this early on through airdropping BAKC and serums to them, throughout merch drops through access to a broader selection of items, through the amounts allocated from the initial $APE airdrop, and even through the tiers of Sewer Passes made available via Dookey Dash.
If you were an OG minter, you got all of this for the price of 0 . 08 ETH.
Whether that justifies the difference in price between BAYC and MAYC is arguable, but also not up to Yuga. Once the mint is done, the market (aka us) decide what a fair price is for all these benefits.
When it comes to the DAO, I don’t believe it is our role to discriminate ANY one collection or delegation. While it definitely isn’t a perfect system, there is beauty in 1 $APE = 1 $APE, and that entry ticket is available to ANYONE who can find $ 1 . 30 to pay the price of admission.
I would hate to see the DAO ever move away from that model, less we lose the very thing that makes this DAO so great.
davivi:
three years into a Ph.D. in sociology of the metaverse
Hi David,
Welcome. Had to com…
davivi:
three years into a Ph.D. in sociology of the metaverse
Hi David,
Welcome. Had to comment after reading your replies. Specifically the above stood out - LFG!!! Like it’s amazing having the diverse community we have, but we also need highly qualified participants to drive ideas and discussions at community level into areas many of us may never think of.
Glad you’re here.
DavidW: Thanks so much for the kind welcome! I’m working with a team of professors at a nonprofit in California on helping people to write academic papers about the DAO and metaverse space. The goal is just legitimacy for the space. There isn’t a single academic journal devoted to DAOs. Scholars who write about the metaverse end up putting articles in business journals, or sociology journals, but this area is totally open for some org to come in and be the leader. I’m actually about to put up an AIP for ApeCoin to lead the way in legitimizing the DAO and metaverse space!
