Proposal Name
ABSTAIN 101 & ITS MANY MISCONCEPTIONS
Abstract
Hide the ABSTAIN results from displaying prominently on snapshot user interface (UI),
Author Description
Concerned DAO member FURIOUS ANGER.
Motivation
The abstain results are prominently displayed on snapshot’s UI; I believe they influence the way votes are being cast. This is unfair as abstaining voters may be encouraging an outcome unknowingly.
Rationale
Since special council decided to ABSTAIN from voting I noticed this added a large amount to the abstain field, which is a very impactful visual at multiple millions, especially due to the order it will show now (heaviest vote count gets top spot). This information was/is certainly not public knowledge, and I believe without this context community members are being unduly influenced by this ever burgeoning ABSTAIN count displayed.
Steps to Implement
Few clicks of the mouse, possibly 10 - 15 minutes, maybe DAR would post a reply if this were incorrect.
Timeline
24 - 36 hours after vote conclusion.
Overall Cost
Costs ZERO dollars (because we have people employed who are paid to complete these tasks).
Proposals submitted to the AIP Ideas category can be vague, incomplete ideas. Topics submitted here are not required to be submitted as a formal AIP Draft Template, however, you may still use the template if you wish.
The proposal suggests hiding the ABSTAIN results from being prominently displayed on the Snapshot user interface. The author, a concerned DAO member, believes that the visible abstain count may unduly influence voting outcomes. The implementation is estimated to take around 10-15 minutes, with no cost involved. The proposal aims to address the issue within 24-36 hours after the vote concludes.
dar: Furious:
Few clicks of the mouse, possibly 10-15 minutes, maybe DAR would post a reply if this were incorrect.
Looks correct to me. Here is what I see with “Hide Abstain” turned on and someone votes to abstain (on testnet):
To clarify, here is the same proposal with two voters, one For and one Abstain:
Hey @furiousanger ,
I understand your concern about the high number of abstains in proposals, but I…
Hey @furiousanger ,
I understand your concern about the high number of abstains in proposals, but I don’t agree that removing the abstain option from the UI is the solution. Abstaining is an important right for voters who may not have enough information or knowledge to make an informed decision, and it should not be taken away from them.
Instead, we should focus on educating and informing ourselves about the proposals so that fewer people feel the need to abstain. It is not healthy to have proposals with a majority of abstains, but we should address the root cause of the issue instead of taking away an important option for voters.
-Mr. Hype :fire:
furiousanger: Hi,
This was my belief when I advocated and voted to add the button, @br00no tried to educate me, and make me understand that the button wasn’t what I initially though, which is same as you - a tool to be used when a lack of understanding or time is a factor - I now know what the solution to that issue is, it’s simply not to vote.
Br00no makes a much better argument than me on this topic, one of his points to me originally was that the button encourages and enables people to be lazy, not make a choice, and this is not what we should be wanting to see. If you are too busy or lazy to read it all, or have a lack of in-depth knowledge to understand the nuances, then simple answer is not to vote.
I hope Br00no adds in to the thread, however there are other threads live re the same issues, I just wanted to compile it all into one as i think they are fragmented now.
Tl;dr - I once thought like you, but now after seeing it in action, how could I have been so stupid.
srinigoes: Maybe if there was some way to send the abstain number to the bottom as they are not contributing to the vote count.
Furious:
Few clicks of the mouse, possibly 10 - 15 minutes, maybe DAR would post a reply if …
Furious:
Few clicks of the mouse, possibly 10 - 15 minutes, maybe DAR would post a reply if this were incorrect.
Looks correct to me. Here is what I see with “Hide Abstain” turned on and someone votes to abstain (on testnet):
image 986 × 496 23 . 7 KB
To clarify, here is the same proposal with two voters, one For and one Abstain:
image 989 × 812 59 KB
dar: One more point to clarify - for “hide abstain” to work, the admin must select “Basic Voting” for the Voting System.
Right now on snapshot, the voting system is being selected as “Single choice voting” and the admin is typing in three choices.
Using “single choice voting” does not appear to work with the “hide abstain” setting.
One more point to clarify - for “hide abstain” to work, the admin must select “Basic Voting” for th…
One more point to clarify - for “hide abstain” to work, the admin must select “Basic Voting” for the Voting System.
Right now on snapshot, the voting system is being selected as “Single choice voting” and the admin is typing in three choices.
Using “single choice voting” does not appear to work with the “hide abstain” setting.
MisterHype: I don’t think we should hide it, we can learn from it to improve it to the long run
furiousanger: Hi Dar,
Thanks, this is another great option you raise - there’s also an alternative choice - we could hide the abstain button from the UI by default, but still let it be an option in voting - instead of simply removing the vote choice altogether - as the thread progresses I hope to get a feeling of which the community will prefer and maybe adjust the proposal and then leave open for a further 7 days after the change. Again, tysm
I don’t think we should hide it, we can learn from it to improve it to the long run
I don’t think we should hide it, we can learn from it to improve it to the long run
It’s funny how few months back it was put up as AIP to include " Abstain " and now this lol
It’s funny how few months back it was put up as AIP to include " Abstain " and now this lol
And it’s just the beginning… we will see this and others topics like that will show up
And it’s just the beginning… we will see this and others topics like that will show up
It will be a child’s game by that point.
"Hey I don’t like this remove this, but I like this "
It will be a child’s game by that point.
"Hey I don’t like this remove this, but I like this "
I think the ‘Abstain’ button serves an important purpose for voters. It allows them to express thei…
I think the ‘Abstain’ button serves an important purpose for voters. It allows them to express their choice to abstain from voting without being forced to vote for or against a proposal. Without the ‘Abstain’ button voters may feel pressured to choose a side even if they don’t fully support the proposal. We can’t overlook the fact that it’s important for the DAO to hear a range of perspectives on proposals, and the ‘Abstain’ option provides a way for voters to express their neutrality or uncertainty. Keeping the ‘Abstain’ button in the snapshot UI will ensure a fair and transparent voting process
furiousanger: Hi Apboatt,
I can relate to how you feel regarding the use cases but if that’s the only reason (lack of time and/or understanding of proposal up for vote) then why not simply abstain from voting altogether? Why does one feel the need to register a vote on something, when he or she does not understand or has not got the time to understand it, unless simply for the desire to farm rewards and/or seem active.
Issue we have right now is that multi millions of abstain votes are made by the special council and/or stewards (not too sure even today if stewards have a united position like SC do, maybe @Amplify could speak a little to this). This imho strengthens the case further to remove the ABSTAIN option - for people who know we don’t need to keep being told and for those who don’t know they can see it as a ‘slight’ towards the AIP, or perceive there to be a possible issue, many therefore follow SC) lead and abstain too - this is not what we want. I submit that the information on why SC abstain is not ‘common knowledge’, voters are confused as to why they are doing it, new entrants even more so, and if you don’t understand something or have the time to read and understand what is being proposed, then simply walk away - maybe we can add a small tick box on thankape and farmers still get rewarded?
You say:
“Keeping the ‘Abstain’ button in the snapshot UI will ensure a fair and transparent voting process.”
What would be ‘unfair’ and ‘untransparent’ in removing the abstain button?
Remember we had almost a year without the option - so by your own statement that would make all votes prior to the abstain addition unfair?
I look forward to your reply as I wish to convert you as @br00no converted me.
TYSM
Aww you used my AIP as an example! I hope it broke Abstain vote records just so I can feel somethin…
Aww you used my AIP as an example! I hope it broke Abstain vote records just so I can feel something.
I totally see your intent with this; however, seeing Abstain votes allowed me to reach out to some voters to ask for their feedback. It was cool. Abstain is an option in regular politics and those are hundreds-year-old systems so while politics itself can be oh-so-dumb, the voting and other basic governing mechanisms exist often for a good reason after going through many iterations.
The real problem (imho) is that DAO reps have to vote Abstain. But there isn’t a fix for that - “whitelisting” certain wallets to not appear in Abstain count (but still appear if they vote For or Against) is a software change on Snapshot side, most likely, plus gotta remember to remove them later, etc.
The solution that I think works is this:
allow Abstain vote, but
remove Abstain from public view, and
let AIP authors see Abstain votes
This, again, is a software change probably on Snapshot side.
Thus, just removing Abstain altogether, as proposed here, does as much harm as good. If not more as it will force people to either not participate at all, or rush to vote without doing full research/reading.
furiousanger: Sasha:
Abstain votes allowed me to reach out to some voters to ask for their feedback
Hi Sasha,
I always feel that our goals are in alignment always, and I totally agree with the above statement. I did in fact use this exact same line to advocate and argue for button.
I don’t really know how to reconcile this part, except by saying, that you do know multiple millions of the votes are those controlled by special council, so most will be made up by that number, actually that is a good point - @Vulkan - do you think you could give us some data on the number of abstain votes on last two votes that were SC and Stewards and break them down for us, who owns which etc? Is that possible please - I’m happy to do any leg work needed - these figures would help me also understand further, as after speaking with @BoredApeG the other day I learned his votes are labelled as his DAO - if I didn’t know this then a vast number of community members will also be unaware I believe. (Tl;dr - breakdown and identify which votes are sc and stewards in the abstain field from last two votes please.) This will give us data to work with - LFG
So how do we overcome the loss of this important tool? If anyone has any suggestions, or if any previous AIP authors can chime in, on the a) amount this has been utilised in the past and b) other ways we could obtain said data, if at all possible.
Sasha:
The real problem (imho) is that DAO reps have to vote Abstain.
I think it is a choice, and as a choice it means it can go the other way if wanted. It also therefore highlights it’s unimportance - why do we keep needing to see this reinforced every vote - they abstained again, but we know that, they abstained again, but we know that etc etc. I suggest that it may seem repetitive to me, but for new entrants that is not how it is perceived. And even if this information was made public, how would we disseminate it, with our great communications channels, lol. I hope I made a point there that is understandable.
Tl;dr - agree we will lose a tool, how valuable that tool ever was/will be is questionable I now feel, hopefully Vulkan will compile some accurate data we can use to assess this soon.
Thanks Sasha
furiousanger: Sasha:
The solution that I think works is this:
allow Abstain vote, but
remove Abstain from public view, and
let AIP authors see Abstain votes
I like these solutions so wanted to highlight them in a separate reply - happy to see what the community consensus is and adjust AIP as we move forward if needed.
Hi,
This was my belief when I advocated and voted to add the button, @br 00 no tried to educate me,…
Hi,
This was my belief when I advocated and voted to add the button, @br 00 no tried to educate me, and make me understand that the button wasn’t what I initially though, which is same as you - a tool to be used when a lack of understanding or time is a factor - I now know what the solution to that issue is, it’s simply not to vote.
Br 00 no makes a much better argument than me on this topic, one of his points to me originally was that the button encourages and enables people to be lazy, not make a choice, and this is not what we should be wanting to see. If you are too busy or lazy to read it all, or have a lack of in-depth knowledge to understand the nuances, then simple answer is not to vote.
I hope Br 00 no adds in to the thread, however there are other threads live re the same issues, I just wanted to compile it all into one as i think they are fragmented now.
Tl;dr - I once thought like you, but now after seeing it in action, how could I have been so stupid.
br00no: Furious gives me too much credit, and I’d like to clear up a few things.
I apparently needed educating myself because when I voted In Favor of “Abstain” as an option I presumed those votes would count. In other words a pass would still require at least 50% In Favor including Abstain. I believe that’s how it “should” be, especially for major costs initiatives or fundamental alterations to how the DAO operates. The new Working Groups is an example.
We can’t be consistent and say Abstain is an important and inclusive voting option, that we value transparency, and then hide it entirely… and I’m tempted to post this in all-caps, 40-pt font:
There is no mandate whatsoever, nor is it ethical, to arbitrarily hide the Abstain totals.
None. Period. That’s an AIP if desired. Maybe authors should have the option of whether there is an Abstain option on their votes?
No one “has to” abstain. If they choose to, that’s their choice. Whether it should be made known in the case of Stewards or SC… I have no opinion.
FWIW, I have no problem with people lacking info voting Abstain. I welcome it, since arguably ill-informed or uncertain people voting definitively one way or the other is one of the most dangerous and existential threats IRL.
Do we really want to support, pay for, and take risks for initiatives that a vast majority of voters can’t be bothered to express an opinion about, no matter the reasons some may have? Does that sound like a successful formula to anyone?
There’s a LOT of confusion around “Abstain” and what its purpose even is. Obviously, as evidenced by this very thread and several others like it.
I’m not the only one who presumed incorrectly, or is confused on the purpose. Others have said things like “I abstained by delegating my vote to so-and-so.” That’s not abstaining when so-and-so is biased. Example: I abstained voting for myself for President but delegated my votes to my mom to vote for me.
And there’s nothing wrong with implementing an idea then stepping back and asking whether that’s really the result intended or what people thought they’d get when voting. Rather, it’s a great show of strength and discussions such as this have high value no matter the result.
I have a lot of respect for @furiousanger and I am supportive of challenging the need for the absta…
I have a lot of respect for @furiousanger and I am supportive of challenging the need for the abstain option . However I still believe that having the abstain button is overall a good thing. Just not voting is very hard/impossible to differentiate from not engaged.
Having an abstain button allows an judgement to be made on who is engaged even if they don’t choose to vote positive or negative on a particular option. The alterative is forcing someone who wishes to be engaged to get off the fence.
Is that a good thing? That is a deep topic that has been discussed in the original decision to add the abstain button.
I would suggest we could answer that question after a period of time by looking at the data and making some assessments from it. Community engagement rates, qualitative assessment of the AIPs passed under the two regimes etc.
In summary great question, imo we should delay answering it until we have the data to compare the results from when we didn’t have an abstain option to when we do, over a 6 month or year period.
furiousanger: Hangout:
That is a deep topic
Hi Hangout,
Back at ya - lots of respect for you as you know - I think the line above states perfectly my position.
I think data will help, maybe hiding the option for now is the solution, or maybe there is an expert in the wings who could comment on the psychological effects visuals have on voting outcomes, maybe there have been studies or tests? I definitely agree this is a much larger topic, maybe research can help us understand the implications, if any, until then maybe hiding it is the best option? I’m open to this certainly and will see if there are any materials online we can use.
Thanks HO, pleasure as always
Hi Dar,
Thanks, this is another great option you raise - there’s also an alternative choice - we co…
Hi Dar,
Thanks, this is another great option you raise - there’s also an alternative choice - we could hide the abstain button from the UI by default, but still let it be an option in voting - instead of simply removing the vote choice altogether - as the thread progresses I hope to get a feeling of which the community will prefer and maybe adjust the proposal and then leave open for a further 7 days after the change. Again, tysm
Hi Evil,
100 % - “I was blind but now I see.”
Let’s get this fixed!
Regards.
FA
Hi Evil,
100 % - “I was blind but now I see.”
Let’s get this fixed!
Regards.
FA
100 % agree we will see more like this to correct or adjust our failures and/or improve on them.
Th…
100 % agree we will see more like this to correct or adjust our failures and/or improve on them.
Thanks MH
Hi Apboatt,
I can relate to how you feel regarding the use cases but if that’s the only reason (lac…
Hi Apboatt,
I can relate to how you feel regarding the use cases but if that’s the only reason (lack of time and/or understanding of proposal up for vote) then why not simply abstain from voting altogether? Why does one feel the need to register a vote on something, when he or she does not understand or has not got the time to understand it, unless simply for the desire to farm rewards and/or seem active.
Issue we have right now is that multi millions of abstain votes are made by the special council and/or stewards (not too sure even today if stewards have a united position like SC do, maybe @Amplify could speak a little to this). This imho strengthens the case further to remove the ABSTAIN option - for people who know we don’t need to keep being told and for those who don’t know they can see it as a ‘slight’ towards the AIP, or perceive there to be a possible issue, many therefore follow SC) lead and abstain too - this is not what we want. I submit that the information on why SC abstain is not ‘common knowledge’, voters are confused as to why they are doing it, new entrants even more so, and if you don’t understand something or have the time to read and understand what is being proposed, then simply walk away - maybe we can add a small tick box on thankape and farmers still get rewarded?
You say:
“Keeping the ‘Abstain’ button in the snapshot UI will ensure a fair and transparent voting process.”
What would be ‘unfair’ and ‘untransparent’ in removing the abstain button?
Remember we had almost a year without the option - so by your own statement that would make all votes prior to the abstain addition unfair?
I look forward to your reply as I wish to convert you as @br 00 no converted me.
TYSM
apboatt: Well @furiousanger Thank you for your response. I understand your concerns regarding the potential misuse of the abstain button, but I still believe that removing it entirely is not the solution. No one must be left out of the voting process. ‘Abstaining’ is a legitimate option for voters who may not understand or have the time to research it thoroughly. Removing the abstain button may discourage these individuals from participating in the voting process at all, which could ultimately lead to a less representative outcome. To prevent voters from misusing the ‘Abstain’ button I think the DAO could focus on educating voters on the importance of informed voting and encourage them to abstain only if they truly feel it is necessary.
Sasha:
Abstain votes allowed me to reach out to some voters to ask for their feedback
Hi Sas…
Sasha:
Abstain votes allowed me to reach out to some voters to ask for their feedback
Hi Sasha,
I always feel that our goals are in alignment always, and I totally agree with the above statement. I did in fact use this exact same line to advocate and argue for button.
I don’t really know how to reconcile this part, except by saying, that you do know multiple millions of the votes are those controlled by special council, so most will be made up by that number, actually that is a good point - @Vulkan - do you think you could give us some data on the number of abstain votes on last two votes that were SC and Stewards and break them down for us, who owns which etc? Is that possible please - I’m happy to do any leg work needed - these figures would help me also understand further, as after speaking with @BoredApeG the other day I learned his votes are labelled as his DAO - if I didn’t know this then a vast number of community members will also be unaware I believe. (Tl;dr - breakdown and identify which votes are sc and stewards in the abstain field from last two votes please.) This will give us data to work with - LFG
So how do we overcome the loss of this important tool? If anyone has any suggestions, or if any previous AIP authors can chime in, on the a) amount this has been utilised in the past and b) other ways we could obtain said data, if at all possible.
Sasha:
The real problem (imho) is that DAO reps have to vote Abstain.
I think it is a choice, and as a choice it means it can go the other way if wanted. It also therefore highlights it’s unimportance - why do we keep needing to see this reinforced every vote - they abstained again, but we know that, they abstained again, but we know that etc etc. I suggest that it may seem repetitive to me, but for new entrants that is not how it is perceived. And even if this information was made public, how would we disseminate it, with our great communications channels, lol. I hope I made a point there that is understandable.
Tl;dr - agree we will lose a tool, how valuable that tool ever was/will be is questionable I now feel, hopefully Vulkan will compile some accurate data we can use to assess this soon.
Thanks Sasha :handshake: :handshake:
CryptoLogically: Furious:
multiple millions of the votes are those controlled by special council
What evidence do you have that the SC accounts for “multiple millions” of votes?
Sasha:
The solution that I think works is this:
allow Abstain vote, but
remove Abstain from p…
Sasha:
The solution that I think works is this:
allow Abstain vote, but
remove Abstain from public view, and
let AIP authors see Abstain votes
I like these solutions so wanted to highlight them in a separate reply - happy to see what the community consensus is and adjust AIP as we move forward if needed.
:handshake: :handshake:
Hangout:
That is a deep topic
Hi Hangout,
Back at ya - lots of respect for you as you know -…
Hangout:
That is a deep topic
Hi Hangout,
Back at ya - lots of respect for you as you know - I think the line above states perfectly my position.
I think data will help, maybe hiding the option for now is the solution, or maybe there is an expert in the wings who could comment on the psychological effects visuals have on voting outcomes, maybe there have been studies or tests? I definitely agree this is a much larger topic, maybe research can help us understand the implications, if any, until then maybe hiding it is the best option? I’m open to this certainly and will see if there are any materials online we can use.
Thanks HO, pleasure as always :handshake: :handshake:
