PROPOSAL NAME
Dissolve The Marketing & Communications Working Group
TEAM DESCRIPTION
@SmartAPE | DAO member [Trust Level 3 ] | writer-of-many-words
I am an indie software developer who has been in the games industry as a gamer and game dev for over 40 years. I have designed, developed, and published over a dozen games during my career.
My first game, Battlecruiser 3000 AD (aka BC 3 K), was a ground-breaking game that was ahead of its time. Published by Take Two interactive in 1996 , it was one of their portfolio titles when they went public in 1997 . So, you could say that I helped the company succeed to where it is today.
Over the decades, I have worked with some of best software developers and publishers around the world, and my works have been featured in various online and print magazines around the world.
I am also a lifetime member of the International Game Developers Association, and was Florida chapter board member for several years.
You can learn more about me on my professional LinkedIn page.
PROPOSAL DESCRIPTION
This proposal was split from the original AIP- 466 : Proposal To Close Non-Essential Working Groups which was tagged “Returned for Reconstruction”:
This AIP Idea was tagged as “Needs Administrative Review” and sent to the Special Council. Upon careful review, the proposal has been deemed “Return for Reconstruction”. In doing so, the Special Council cited:
Could you please resubmit this proposal as individual proposals for each specific Working Group, referencing the charter for each one?
Please remove any references to clawbacks from the resubmissions.
This proposal suggests the following:
Close the Marketing & Communications Working Group AIP- 246 : Working Group Charter - Marketing & Communications
Terminate the contracts of all stewards in the aforementioned working groups
Perform an orderly wind down of any/all ops related to the aforementioned working groups
To date, and with the exception of the newly created AIP- 376 : Working Group Charter - Web 3 Development, these Working Groups have been largely ineffective in their mandate.
Further, as per the Q 1 / 24 financial reports which we all knew would be bad (and we have yet to see Q 2 & Q 3 ), it’s clear that the treasury has run out of disposal funds. Ape Foundation Transparency Report - 2024 - Q 1
The current yearly budgets based on an approved 6 -month budget for the MarComms WG is $ 987 K per year AIP- 403 : ApeCoin DAO Marketing & Communications (MarComms) Working Group Budget
Collectively, all three working groups are costing or will cost the DAO almost $ 3 M per year
The DAO created these working groups. And the DAO is well within its actions, activities, and purview to close them as per AIP- 239 : Working Group Guidelines & The Governance Working Group Charter
wg_dissolution 702 × 195 36 . 1 KB
BENEFIT TO APECOIN ECOSYSTEM
Closing the working group has the following benefits:
The DAO immediately saves money
The DAO can re-purpose LESS funds to hire/contract experienced third-parties who have a lot more experience in the specific areas previously outlined in this WG charter.
The DAO no longer has to deal with the distractions, funding, and down time associated with elections as well as the budget proposals and voting for these working groups.
The GwG and the SC advisors can focus on specific mandates which are beneficial to the smooth operation of the DAO.
The GwG and the SC advisors can hire and contract third-party teams and corps on an as-needed basis. This also provides the flexibility of being able to switch teams if they fail to perform as expected.
STEPS TO IMPLEMENT
Upon passing of this proposal, the following are to take immediate effect, and the Ape Foundation is directed to take the following actions:
To TERMINATE the contracts of all the stewards in the working group, and with a minimum of 30 -days notice given to the affected stewards.
To pay in full, to affected stewards, any/all amounts that are in arrears. With the exception of payments due with the aforementioned 30 -day period, these payments are for that which are in arrears only, and not a contract “buy out” of future payments.
To put into effect an orderly wind-down of the operations of any/all activities and entities (e.g. sub-DAOs) associated with the affected working groups as per AIP- 239 : Working Group Guidelines & The Governance Working Group Charter
Going forward, and on an as-needed basis, this proposal grants the following to the Ape Foundation:
Put up RFPs for activities and work which were previously required to be performed by the aforementioned working group. Such RFPs would be based on RFP revisions approved in AIP- 401 .
As per the RFP, hire third-party teams which would be directed to handle all activities previously performed by this WG, and in much the same manner that it hires and contracts attorneys, accountants and other third-party teams and entities needed for its day to day business activities.
As per the RFP, without the need or requirement for any additional stewards, the Ape Foundation manage and co-ordinate the consulting and hiring of any third-parties selected by the RFP to perform the required roles with specific KPIs and OKRs which are to be shared with the DAO community.
As per above, a new Discourse category called “Job Description” related to either a work for hire request or an RFP so that the DAO community can have the opportunity to participate in such hiring opportunities.
REPORTING EXPECTATIONS
The expectation is that this proposal would be implemented by the DAO’s administrative team. The community should regularly review the impact of this proposal. If accepted, the administration and the community should review the impact of the updates after the 3 -month period for conflict ends.
OVERALL COST
Total amount requested from the ApeCoin Ecosystem Fund = A maximum of 200 , 000 $APE per year would be allocated as the total budget for the activities previously associated with this working group. This budget can only be revised via a proposal by either the GwG stewards or the Special Council.
The proposal suggests dissolving the Marketing & Communications Working Group due to ineffectiveness and high costs, redirecting funds to hire experienced third-parties, and simplifying operations for the DAO. The plan includes terminating contracts of stewards, conducting an orderly wind-down, and implementing new hiring processes. The proposal aims to save money and enhance efficiency within the ApeCoin ecosystem.
I’m wondering will the “Full-time position” bring more significant results.
I’m wondering will the “Full-time position” bring more significant results.
SmartAPE: likkee.eth:
I’m wondering will the “Full-time position” bring more significant results.
Unlikely. You need people with experience, reach and a consistent plan. For example, yesterday I was in the BoTB Spaces where @Dany319 AIP-492: ApeCoin Gets a LOUDER Voice: The podcastization of the ApeCoin Ecosystem (Resubmission) proposal was being discussed. That’s a perfect example of the sort of [targeted] programs and initiatives that we need. But ofc the powers-that-be are likely to kill that one because it’s better to have their friends pulling a paycheck while having no KPIs or any metrics to show for it.
If the Ape Foundation opted instead to hire third-party teams (of which there are several) on an as-needed basis, that’s a better plan and use of funds than what we currently have.
Again, it’s not personal…
Ape Foundation Transparency Report - 2024 - Q1
In any financial setting, when low on funds you take steps to extend the financial runway. And that means, cutting staff, projects etc. This is standard practice. Even Yuga - with over $450M to burn - did two rounds of layoffs for specifically those reasons.
Regardless, at the end of the day, it’s up to the DAO to make the final determination.
Hey @SmartAPE - appreciate you taking the time to write this out.
From experience - the problem wit…
Hey @SmartAPE - appreciate you taking the time to write this out.
From experience - the problem with putting forward singular reforms such as this, there is no clear path forward as to what you are attempting to change the structure into.
By closing down one or all of the working groups you deem not necessary, have you calculated the resource requirements on the working groups left standing? What about the opportunity cost due to the restructure at arguably the most important time in Apecoins history with the launch of Apechain.
Is the core issue more one of a lack of reporting structures and transparency? The current working groups are working a lot to deliver tangible results, but is there a gap in highlighting their successes?
So instead of a complete restructure which will have serious long term effects, is there a more pragmatic and proactive approach to improve the comms and transparency piece, ensuring that WG’s budgets, initiatives, desired and actual outcomes are frequently reported on.
Just my 2 cents and initial thoughts. Happy to jump on a call for further discussion anytime. Enjoy your weekend.
SmartAPE: PhilWatkins:
From experience - the problem with putting forward singular reforms such as this, there is no clear path forward as to what you are attempting to change the structure into.
Yes there is a clear path. I’m trying to cut down on needless expenses for what basically amount to ineffective “no show” jobs. They seemed like a good idea at the time.
PhilWatkins:
By closing down one or all of the working groups you deem not necessary, have you calculated the resource requirements on the working groups left standing? What about the opportunity cost due to the restructure at arguably the most important time in Apecoins history with the launch of Apechain.
Yes, I have. I tend not to waste time on pointless ventures. I deemed all three WGs to be ineffective, useless and inconsequential. It’s not personal.
Ape Foundation Transparency Report - 2024 - Q1
In any financial setting, when low on funds you take steps to extend the financial runway. And that means, cutting staff, projects etc. This is standard practice. Even Yuga - with over $450M to burn - did two rounds of layoffs for specifically those reasons.
Regardless, at the end of the day, it’s up to the DAO to make the final determination.
PhilWatkins:
Is the core issue more one of a lack of reporting structures and transparency?
Not particularly, but those are just a part of it.
PhilWatkins:
The current working groups are working a lot to deliver tangible results, but is there a gap in highlighting their successes?
I haven’t seen any evidence of this, Phil; but do feel free to prove me wrong by posting some of the KPIs from this particular WG since it’s inception so that we can discuss them based on their merits.
PhilWatkins:
So instead of a complete restructure which will have serious long term effects,
The only long-term effect that I see is that the DAO wouldn’t have to keep spending almost $3M per year on WGs that are ineffective, inconsequential and which have thus far proven to be largely immaterial in anything promised.
PhilWatkins:
is there a more pragmatic and proactive approach to improve the comms and transparency piece, ensuring that WG’s budgets, initiatives, desired and actual outcomes are frequently reported on.
That ship already sailed. If you guys thought all of the above were important to the community and that accountability and transparency were critical, this proposal wouldn’t have any reason to exist.
I gain nothing from writing all these proposals. I do them because, if nothing else, at least at some point someone can say “We tried to do this, that and the other” - and on the record for doing just that. For quite some time I have believed that the DAO is going to die - and I am on the record (both here and in my social media feeds) as saying as much. There’s no if, and or but about it - but only when. And while I hope to be proven wrong, if/when that day comes, we can all look back at those who tried - in vein - to save it. To wit: it’s Sun morning here in FL and I’m sitting on my deck responding to all these Discourse posts because my week is going to be hectic. I deemed them to be necessary and important.
PhilWatkins:
Just my 2 cents and initial thoughts. Happy to jump on a call for further discussion anytime.
I fully understand where you’re coming from because it’s no different from any situation whereby someone has to defend a grant renewal, a program that’s about to be defunded, a dept. team that’s about to be disbanded, a job that’s about to be made redundant etc. I get it. That said, you’ve done an admirable job in this regard, and your missive above [eloquently] highlights the sort of things which would be discussed during such meetings.
likkee.eth:
I’m wondering will the “Full-time position” bring more significant results.
Unli…
likkee.eth:
I’m wondering will the “Full-time position” bring more significant results.
Unlikely. You need people with experience, reach and a consistent plan. For example, yesterday I was in the BoTB Spaces where @Dany 319 AIP- 492 : ApeCoin Gets a LOUDER Voice: The podcastization of the ApeCoin Ecosystem (Resubmission) proposal was being discussed. That’s a perfect example of the sort of [targeted] programs and initiatives that we need. But ofc the powers-that-be are likely to kill that one because it’s better to have their friends pulling a paycheck while having no KPIs or any metrics to show for it.
If the Ape Foundation opted instead to hire third-party teams (of which there are several) on an as-needed basis, that’s a better plan and use of funds than what we currently have.
Again, it’s not personal…
:point_right: Ape Foundation Transparency Report - 2024 - Q 1
In any financial setting, when low on funds you take steps to extend the financial runway. And that means, cutting staff, projects etc. This is standard practice. Even Yuga - with over $ 450 M to burn - did two rounds of layoffs for specifically those reasons.
Regardless, at the end of the day, it’s up to the DAO to make the final determination.
PhilWatkins:
From experience - the problem with putting forward singular reforms such as this,…
PhilWatkins:
From experience - the problem with putting forward singular reforms such as this, there is no clear path forward as to what you are attempting to change the structure into.
Yes there is a clear path. I’m trying to cut down on needless expenses for what basically amount to ineffective “no show” jobs. They seemed like a good idea at the time.
PhilWatkins:
By closing down one or all of the working groups you deem not necessary, have you calculated the resource requirements on the working groups left standing? What about the opportunity cost due to the restructure at arguably the most important time in Apecoins history with the launch of Apechain.
Yes, I have. I tend not to waste time on pointless ventures. I deemed all three WGs to be ineffective, useless and inconsequential. It’s not personal.
:point_right: Ape Foundation Transparency Report - 2024 - Q 1
In any financial setting, when low on funds you take steps to extend the financial runway. And that means, cutting staff, projects etc. This is standard practice. Even Yuga - with over $ 450 M to burn - did two rounds of layoffs for specifically those reasons.
Regardless, at the end of the day, it’s up to the DAO to make the final determination.
PhilWatkins:
Is the core issue more one of a lack of reporting structures and transparency?
Not particularly, but those are just a part of it.
PhilWatkins:
The current working groups are working a lot to deliver tangible results, but is there a gap in highlighting their successes?
I haven’t seen any evidence of this, Phil; but do feel free to prove me wrong by posting some of the KPIs from this particular WG since it’s inception so that we can discuss them based on their merits.
PhilWatkins:
So instead of a complete restructure which will have serious long term effects,
The only long-term effect that I see is that the DAO wouldn’t have to keep spending almost $ 3 M per year on WGs that are ineffective, inconsequential and which have thus far proven to be largely immaterial in anything promised.
PhilWatkins:
is there a more pragmatic and proactive approach to improve the comms and transparency piece, ensuring that WG’s budgets, initiatives, desired and actual outcomes are frequently reported on.
That ship already sailed. If you guys thought all of the above were important to the community and that accountability and transparency were critical, this proposal wouldn’t have any reason to exist.
I gain nothing from writing all these proposals. I do them because, if nothing else, at least at some point someone can say “We tried to do this, that and the other” - and on the record for doing just that. For quite some time I have believed that the DAO is going to die - and I am on the record (both here and in my social media feeds) as saying as much. There’s no if, and or but about it - but only when. And while I hope to be proven wrong, if/when that day comes, we can all look back at those who tried - in vein - to save it. To wit: it’s Sun morning here in FL and I’m sitting on my deck responding to all these Discourse posts because my week is going to be hectic. I deemed them to be necessary and important.
PhilWatkins:
Just my 2 cents and initial thoughts. Happy to jump on a call for further discussion anytime.
I fully understand where you’re coming from because it’s no different from any situation whereby someone has to defend a grant renewal, a program that’s about to be defunded, a dept. team that’s about to be disbanded, a job that’s about to be made redundant etc. I get it. That said, you’ve done an admirable job in this regard, and your missive above [eloquently] highlights the sort of things which would be discussed during such meetings.
Happy Sunday,
I hear you loud and clear - its my Bday today and im sitting here responding to you a…
Happy Sunday,
I hear you loud and clear - its my Bday today and im sitting here responding to you as I deem this important and a priority.
Please do not forget; I am here as a community member # 1 , a builder who is trying to work with the DAO and a metaverse steward of 2 months who takes a keen interest in your opinion. We both want the same thing, for the DAO to be successful.
Im honestly reading your AIP and replies, taking notes on key aspects that can be addressed and should be prioritised in the short term.
Enjoy your Sunday and please reach out anytime in DM aswell
PhilWatkins:
I hear you loud and clear - its my Bday today and im sitting here responding to y…
PhilWatkins:
I hear you loud and clear - its my Bday today and im sitting here responding to you as I deem this important and a priority.
Happy :birthday:
PhilWatkins:
Please do not forget; I am here as a community member # 1 , a builder who is trying to work with the DAO and a metaverse steward of 2 months who takes a keen interest in your opinion. We both want the same thing, for the DAO to be successful.
Agreed. And it’s precisely why I invited you (above) to show me some of what I may have missed in the activities of the group, what progress has been made etc.
I mean, the first thing that I saw from @DIM over at MwG was for $ 800 K to buy Otherdeeds - which have already depreciated over 97 % in value since inception and which are tied to Otherside which still isn’t a thing. ApeCoin DAO’s Otherside Strategy - Acquisition of assets and usage. And this is his Discourse activity record. Then there was this exchange on X while discussing the MwG.
Yet, aside from the fact that very few here seem to be in the least bit concerned about the DAO’s financial situation, all this wasteful spending is what got us right here. And we still haven’t seen the Q 3 /Q 4 numbers yet and which are bound to be even more horrific.
PhilWatkins:
Im honestly reading your AIP and replies, taking notes on key aspects that can be addressed and should be prioritised in the short term.
Enjoy your Sunday and please reach out anytime in DM aswell
Thanks! Will do. Same to you as well.
I am actually personnaly considering voting positively to this AIP and the other if they to vote. T…
I am actually personnaly considering voting positively to this AIP and the other if they to vote. There is a lot of work to be done and a lot of changes to be made and unfortunately the current process does not allow this.
Still very keen on having a conversation with you, any day, any time.
Thanks for expressing the desire to address these issues. Right now we have a fully functional GwG,…
Thanks for expressing the desire to address these issues. Right now we have a fully functional GwG, facilitators and Special Council - which are all that we currently need.
Plus, these three working groups pre-date the Banana Bill which is currently the primary focus of the DAO’s revenue stream. And they apparently have a GTM plan. While the BB does have a huge challenge ahead, these three working groups are just needless. And as I’ve said before, it’s not personal. The Ape Foundation can hire teams on an as-needed basis - just like any other bootstrap (the DAO is really a startup that stands a near zero chance of getting to a Series A at this point) startup.
I am always happy to take calls with anyone. I have done so many times in the past; besides my discussions on Spaces (e.g. yesterday’s BoTB discussion was exceptional. I welcome all to listen to the recording) about various things. But the bottom line is that if we can’t discuss and take action - even those which are unpopular - that’s just going to hasten the survival of our DAO. And its survival depends on the treasury. And if we stopped funding grants and ventures, then the DAO becomes irrelevant because that was its sole purpose for existing.
I will say this again, we should close the DAO and rebuild it. There is no other way to save it. This missive that I wrote back in Oct 2023 seemed like yesterday. Here we are, almost a year later. And we’re out of money.
popil - Marketing & Communications Working Group Steward
Sept. 9, 2024, 9:23 p.m.
Thank you for reconsidering and sharing your insights for the ApeCoin community.
As ApeCoin MarComm…
Thank you for reconsidering and sharing your insights for the ApeCoin community.
As ApeCoin MarComms Steward, I want to transparently share our progress over the past six months. I’ve updated our work and am excited to share more details. For a detailed view, please check: “Q 1 and Q 2 Updates for ApeCoin DAO Marketing & Communications (MarComms) Working Stewar.”
As previously explained, our MarComms group operated with zero budget from January to July 2024 . Despite this, we met all KPIs and supported ApeCoin DAO’s marketing and content needs. This includes designing the Alpine F 1 AIP content, the ApeCoin x Alpine F 1 video, and the ongoing design of Alpine F 1 event tickets.
I also designed the initial ApeChain logo and key content, and led the Banana Bill spaces promotions. Additionally, I facilitated the Yuga 10 KTF x ApeCoin collaboration, introducing the ApeCoin community to a new experience.
We organized ApeCoin meetups in 7 cities, including NFTNYC’s Bored Bunch and NFTFest in Brussels, and collaborated with Thank Ape and MBA brands to promote ApeCoin culture.
Our budget-saving efforts have contributed to the new budget proposal for the second round. For details, visit: “ApeCoin DAO Marketing & Communications (MarComms) Working Group Budget- Brand Integration and Global Influence Enhancement”
Despite the challenges, our working group covered many expenses and supported the community, including the Ape U partnership and AIP support group.
My DMs are open for discussion. I hope we can better understand each other’s perspectives and the challenges each working group faces. I’m happy to answer any questions.
Let’s build together!
SmartAPE: Hi Popil - Thanks for the detailed update.
As you probably know, I am well aware of some of your activities; though it’s somewhat difficult to discern between your personal activities and that of your work for the DAO. Especially since your WG has been operating without a budget for some time after being voted in.
MarComms Updates
popil:
For a detailed view, please check: “Q1 and Q2 Updates for ApeCoin DAO Marketing & Communications (MarComms) Working Stewar .”
Since you only posted that [impressive] update barely 24 hrs ago, I have now reviewed it ahead of my posting this reply.
Transparency & Accountability
So, here’s the thing - and it’s not my intention to put you on the spot - but the AIP-246: Working Group Charter - Marketing & Communications as created by @ssp1111 has specific performance guidelines. And I quote:
“Propose a consistent and compelling brand strategy and identity for the ApeCoin DAO, propose and implement comprehensive marketing and communications strategies, and help establish a strong presence through effective global communication efforts in order to onboard more users into the DAO.”
.
Working Group Reporting Requirements:
Monthly progress updates on initiatives.
Quarterly reports on brand strategy and identity development, decentralized marketing, Community engagement, and growth analytics.
Automated daily, weekly and monthly analytics on ApeCoin DAO’s social media presence, including metrics and engagement levels, will be available once a dashboard has been set up.
Searching Discourse, I find no evidence of your WG having done any of the above.
Aside from that, AIP-403: ApeCoin DAO Marketing & Communications (MarComms) Working Group Budget gave the WG $493,500 (6 months) for which, salaries ($9K each, for a total of $18K per month) has come with zero accountability because your WG hasn’t posted any details about how the funds were allocated and spent - despite the fact that the WG budget allocated $2,500 specifically for booking & accounting.
Activity Effectiveness
popil:
Despite this, we met all KPIs and supported ApeCoin DAO’s marketing and content needs. This includes designing the Alpine F1 AIP content, the ApeCoin x Alpine F1 video, and the ongoing design of Alpine F1 event tickets.
What KPIs are those? Please list them, along with their disposition.
This is important because, looking at the Discourse and social media trends, I find no evidence of MarComms efforts bringing any value to the DAO at a cost of $493,500 (6 months). For example even the @ApecoinNow X account barely has 500 followers, and I won’t even bother posting the metrics of its engagement.
I also want to mention the disparity in your operations. For example, how are you spending so much time promoting a single proposal AIP-406: ApeCoin DAO multi-year partnership with Redacted, a Formula One Team, while not giving attention to other proposals? Please explain this. I would imagine that it’s because it’s targeting marketing; however, that too has proven to be ineffective and that was over $5M spent.
Community Involvement
Both you and Lintro were appointed back in Dec 2023:
ApeCoin DAO – Marketing and Communications Working Group Steward Elections - Term Beginning January 2024
And we elected another person, Yumi back in June; thus increasing the budget by another $9K per month.
ApeCoin DAO – Marketing and Communications Working Group Steward Elections - Term Beginning July 2024
Not to mention that for a WG that’s supposed to be promoting and marketing the DAO, below is the Discourse (our community central hub) for both members of the team:
You come and go - sporadically on average of 2.4 times per month - and without posting any relevant updates:
@popil
Popil
boredart.store
ApeCoin MarComms Ex - OpenSea XR Artist. Founder of BoredTea. www.popilart.com www.boredtea.store
Joined September 4, 2023
Linstro has been here - once:
@Linstro.eth
Linstro.eth
Joined January 2, 2023
Conclusion
While I personally recognize your efforts, I have yet to see anything that indicates to me that the WG has been effective in its mandate.
For one thing, even with the advent of ApeChain, literally nobody is even talking about it - besides the usual Ape degens. I am all but certain that you have access to the same metrics that I do. And that’s specifically why I mentioned marketing in the missive that I posted here Implementation Update | AIP-454: The BANANA Bill: Apes Gotta Eat yesterday.
The DAO could instead hire the likes of Layer3 Galxe, Upptic, Windwalk, CrowdCreate etc. at a lower cost, while getting tangible and effective results. And that’s on an as-needed basis. And all those teams also do on-site events in collab with their partners and clients around the world.
The point that I am making here is that, dissolving this WG wouldn’t and shouldn’t be the end of your efforts. Instead, as I indicate in the proposal, the DAO, in the same way that it hires other service providers, could very well hire you or anyone they deem fit for the job to collab with experienced third-party teams/corps (as per above) in coming up with an effective marketing & comms strategy for the DAO.
Again, it’s not personal…
Ape Foundation Transparency Report - 2024 - Q1
In any financial setting, when low on funds you take steps to extend the financial runway. And that means, cutting staff, projects etc. This is standard practice. Even Yuga - with over $450M to burn - did two rounds of layoffs for specifically those reasons.
Regardless, at the end of the day, it’s up to the DAO to make the final determination at vote.
ToniVal: popil:
Hey， @SmartAPE , thanks for the reply. I believe that if you are still pursuing administrative and practical operations to raise your doubts in this situation, making political judgments alone is actually lacking consideration for the actual situation.
What “political judgements” are you talking about, @popil ?
@SmartAPE , like me, is concerned about the obvious lack of professionalism or planning of all the WGs, including MarComms.
To start with, I’d like to see this WG’s specific Marketing & Communications strategy and some metrics, including figures and hard data, about its impact, because in my perception it’s minimal to nil.
For instance, by way of example,
popil:
the ApeCoin x Alpine F1 video
…not sure if you mean this:?
ApeCoin DAO X BWT Alpine F1 team
Because if you mean this, budget or no budget, in my KPIs (and I come from the marketing & advertising world), after paying 5M EUROS to Alpine, and having Pierre Gasly on screen, getting less than 100 views in 3 months (let that sink, LESS-THAN-ONE-HUNDRED views IN THREE MONTHS with PIERRE GASLY ON SCREEN)…
…is absolutely unacceptable and there’s nothing “political” about it. In my company, a whole bunch of people would be fired for this.
So, let’s try to be professional here, OK? In order to evaluate if the MarComms WG is going to be useful or not, I’d need to read:
The WG’s strategic marketing & communications plan, and how it is intended to have some impact.
Figures and hard data about the impact both on W3 and W2 until now.
Thank you in advance.
Hi mate,
I do see some issues here.
Am I right in saying WGs are now legal entities separated even …
Hi mate,
I do see some issues here.
Am I right in saying WGs are now legal entities separated even further from the DAO and essentially just grant recipients now?
I do see the merit in ending some of the WGs which have/will been made redundant (metaverse & web 3 ) by recent developments such as apechain & bananas bill, however, recouping grant monies already paid to these “entities” may prove problematic - why not advocate to dissolve when the budgets conclude? Maybe that also helps get through SC round. :man_shrugging:
Tl;dr - support for some WGs to end due to becoming redundant (think MCWG is one we should keep). Also not sure if recouping grants is feasible or worth pursing.
Thanks.
Hi Popil - Thanks for the detailed update. :muscle:
As you probably know, I am well aware of some o…
Hi Popil - Thanks for the detailed update. :muscle:
As you probably know, I am well aware of some of your activities; though it’s somewhat difficult to discern between your personal activities and that of your work for the DAO. Especially since your WG has been operating without a budget for some time after being voted in.
MarComms Updates
popil:
For a detailed view, please check: “Q 1 and Q 2 Updates for ApeCoin DAO Marketing & Communications (MarComms) Working Stewar .”
Since you only posted that [impressive] update barely 24 hrs ago, I have now reviewed it ahead of my posting this reply.
Transparency & Accountability
So, here’s the thing - and it’s not my intention to put you on the spot - but the AIP- 246 : Working Group Charter - Marketing & Communications as created by @ssp 1111 has specific performance guidelines. And I quote:
“Propose a consistent and compelling brand strategy and identity for the ApeCoin DAO, propose and implement comprehensive marketing and communications strategies, and help establish a strong presence through effective global communication efforts in order to onboard more users into the DAO.”
.
Working Group Reporting Requirements:
Monthly progress updates on initiatives.
Quarterly reports on brand strategy and identity development, decentralized marketing, Community engagement, and growth analytics.
Automated daily, weekly and monthly analytics on ApeCoin DAO’s social media presence, including metrics and engagement levels, will be available once a dashboard has been set up.
Searching Discourse, I find no evidence of your WG having done any of the above.
Aside from that, AIP- 403 : ApeCoin DAO Marketing & Communications (MarComms) Working Group Budget gave the WG $ 493 , 500 ( 6 months) for which, salaries ($ 9 K each, for a total of $ 18 K per month) has come with zero accountability because your WG hasn’t posted any details about how the funds were allocated and spent - despite the fact that the WG budget allocated $ 2 , 500 specifically for booking & accounting.
Activity Effectiveness
popil:
Despite this, we met all KPIs and supported ApeCoin DAO’s marketing and content needs. This includes designing the Alpine F 1 AIP content, the ApeCoin x Alpine F 1 video, and the ongoing design of Alpine F 1 event tickets.
What KPIs are those? Please list them, along with their disposition.
This is important because, looking at the Discourse and social media trends, I find no evidence of MarComms efforts bringing any value to the DAO at a cost of $ 493 , 500 ( 6 months). For example even the @ApecoinNow X account barely has 500 followers, and I won’t even bother posting the metrics of its engagement.
I also want to mention the disparity in your operations. For example, how are you spending so much time promoting a single proposal AIP- 406 : ApeCoin DAO multi-year partnership with Redacted, a Formula One Team, while not giving attention to other proposals? Please explain this. I would imagine that it’s because it’s targeting marketing; however, that too has proven to be ineffective and that was over $ 5 M spent.
Community Involvement
Both you and Lintro were appointed back in Dec 2023 :
ApeCoin DAO – Marketing and Communications Working Group Steward Elections - Term Beginning January 2024
And we elected another person, Yumi back in June; thus increasing the budget by another $ 9 K per month.
ApeCoin DAO – Marketing and Communications Working Group Steward Elections - Term Beginning July 2024
Not to mention that for a WG that’s supposed to be promoting and marketing the DAO, below is the Discourse (our community central hub) for both members of the team:
You come and go - sporadically on average of 2 . 4 times per month - and without posting any relevant updates:
@popil
Popil
boredart.store
ApeCoin MarComms
Ex - OpenSea
XR Artist. Founder of BoredTea.
www.popilart.com
www.boredtea.store
Joined September 4 , 2023
Linstro has been here - once:
@Linstro.eth
Linstro.eth
Joined January 2 , 2023
Conclusion
While I personally recognize your efforts, I have yet to see anything that indicates to me that the WG has been effective in its mandate.
For one thing, even with the advent of ApeChain, literally nobody is even talking about it - besides the usual Ape degens. I am all but certain that you have access to the same metrics that I do. And that’s specifically why I mentioned marketing in the missive that I posted here Implementation Update | AIP- 454 : The BANANA Bill: Apes Gotta Eat yesterday.
The DAO could instead hire the likes of Layer 3 Galxe, Upptic, Windwalk, CrowdCreate etc. at a lower cost, while getting tangible and effective results. And that’s on an as-needed basis. And all those teams also do on-site events in collab with their partners and clients around the world.
The point that I am making here is that, dissolving this WG wouldn’t and shouldn’t be the end of your efforts. Instead, as I indicate in the proposal, the DAO, in the same way that it hires other service providers, could very well hire you or anyone they deem fit for the job to collab with experienced third-party teams/corps (as per above) in coming up with an effective marketing & comms strategy for the DAO.
Again, it’s not personal…
:point_right: Ape Foundation Transparency Report - 2024 - Q 1
In any financial setting, when low on funds you take steps to extend the financial runway. And that means, cutting staff, projects etc. This is standard practice. Even Yuga - with over $ 450 M to burn - did two rounds of layoffs for specifically those reasons.
Regardless, at the end of the day, it’s up to the DAO to make the final determination at vote.
popil - Marketing & Communications Working Group Steward
Sept. 10, 2024, 12:52 p.m.
Hey， @SmartAPE , thanks for the reply. I believe that if you are still pursuing administrative and …
Hey， @SmartAPE , thanks for the reply. I believe that if you are still pursuing administrative and practical operations to raise your doubts in this situation, making political judgments alone is actually lacking consideration for the actual situation.
As I replied to you, and as is very clear in your reply, our working group has been operating under zero budget, enduring immense pressure. It wasn’t until July that we received the first installment of the AIP- 403 budget, and even that was a small amount to cover the costs of already advanced activities, video production, and brand guidelines. All of this was done under force majeure to complete and deliver the results. More importantly, you seem to have overlooked the reality that every new working group has to go through the procedural challenges of establishing an LLC, all of which is handled in compliance with legal and DAO requirements.
Therefore, according to the AIP, from January to June, we executed tasks and implemented KPIs under zero budget and zero compensation. How can we implement the original plan without a budget? This is a strategic adjustment of pace. Moreover, in the end, we completed every project according to the initially set KPIs.
Regarding the publication, I personally was responsible for a large number of retweets on the main ApeCoin Twitter account and the ApeCoinNow account, as well as organizing many Spaces. It was not 2 . 5 times as you mentioned, but at least 5 - 10 retweets and responses daily. If your investigation is focused on my personal account, then I can clearly tell you that my personal account is my own and is not subject to any mandatory posting under any AIP.
Additionally, in the new Q 1 and Q 2 reports, we have also provided comprehensive responses and updates.
Additionally, I want to say that we have not spent any single moment on any proposal. On the contrary, we are doing our best to help and engage with every proposal. Besides, if you take a moment to notice, you will find that in the past six months, I have maintained close relationships with most of the proposal participants and even became good friends. The reason is empathy; we sincerely help each AIP, understand their difficulties, and assist many AIPs in adjusting their strategies.
We are also cooperating with Ape U on education and onboarding, helping new proposals have better channels to engage with ApeChain. If your proposal needs any help, feel free to DM me.
In short, I hope you can understand that we emphasize co-building and co-winning as the best way to help DAO grow. If you repeatedly emphasize every point here (and of course, I can choose to reply to every detail), it will lead to a deadlock rather than efficient communication.
I prefer to listen to your needs, understand your confusion, and if you believe that your personal execution capabilities can better lead any WG, you are welcome to contribute to the DAO. I look forward to working with you!
Thank you, and have a nice day!
SmartAPE: popil:
I believe that if you are still pursuing administrative and practical operations to raise your doubts in this situation, making political judgments alone is actually lacking consideration for the actual situation.
Sorry, but I didn’t understand any of that.
Are you saying that I shouldn’t question the operations?
Also, I don’t understand where “political” comes into this. Care to explain what you mean by that?
popil:
As I replied to you, and as is very clear in your reply, our working group has been operating under zero budget, enduring immense pressure.
Yes, I get that. And yes, that goes towards the performance issue that we’re discussing.
popil:
It wasn’t until July that we received the first installment of the AIP-403 budget, and even that was a small amount to cover the costs of already advanced activities, video production, and brand guidelines. All of this was done under force majeure to complete and deliver the results.
I fail to see the relevance pertaining to gauging the performance and effectiveness of the WG.
Yes - you got voted into a [new] position that wasn’t funded. That’s not your fault, and nobody is blaming you for that.
ps. I believe that the use of force majeure is improper in this context. I believe you meant, voluntary.
popil:
More importantly, you seem to have overlooked the reality that every new working group has to go through the procedural challenges of establishing an LLC, all of which is handled in compliance with legal and DAO requirements.
I didn’t overlook that because it’s been the on-going theme here in the DAO.
That said, the positions aren’t permanent. And so, it stands to reason that each team being voted in would already have all their ducks in a row befitting the activities related to setting up operations. If you were waiting for funding from the Foundation in order to do all that, then it means that you applied for and got voted into a position that still has the same exact problems of inefficiency that some of us have been talking about for months now.
And FYI, I am well aware of the ramifications of such an inefficient setup that we have here in the DAO. Hence the reason that I wrote this proposal back in June to address it AIP-465: Alignment Of Working Group Terms And Budgets
popil:
Therefore, according to the AIP, from January to June, we executed tasks and implemented KPIs under zero budget and zero compensation. How can we implement the original plan without a budget? This is a strategic adjustment of pace. Moreover, in the end, we completed every project according to the initially set KPIs.
Yes, I fully understand the challenges and constraints.
Also, I have to ask again. What KPIs? You still haven’t outlined them. And thus far, I haven’t found a single thread here on Discourse that includes KPIs for MarComms. But what I did find are tasks and goals in the charter and which, as I mentioned above, the WG team hasn’t bothered to adhere to. Not even a little bit. The outlines in the charter aren’t suggestions. They’re a charter. And they come with transparency, performance and accountability metrics.
As I mentioned previously, this isn’t about blame, fault etc. It’s about transparency, accountability and funding. If the DAO is low on funds while spending money on programs that aren’t effective, those identified as such should be cut and defunded. This isn’t my money, and like most, I shouldn’t care what happens to it.
Regardless of all that, the fact remains that if the DAO remains inefficient, continues to throw money at grifts, inconsequential projects voted in by “friends and family” whales, inefficient programs, “no show” jobs etc., then it’s going to die quicker than current tracking says that it’s destined to. And amid all that, with ApeChain now the primary focus of revenue generation and which some of us are trying our best to help build, what happens to the DAO directly correlates to the success or failure of ApeChain.
Again, this isn’t personal. I just don’t see the value in this WG to the DAO. But again, the final decision isn’t up to me. The DAO whales are going to vote how they want - regardless of merit. And so, when the DAO finally runs out of money - as I am 99% certain that as of this writing it already has in Q3/24 - to the extent that it can’t pay for anything because ApeChain fees aren’t sufficient, that’s when everyone will probably start to pay attention. After the fact.
DavidW: popil:
I want to say that we have not spent any single moment on any proposal.
I don’t really understand what this means. I found your response to @SmartAPE somewhat confusing. I also didn’t understand what you felt was “political” about a request for transparency and clear reporting on KPIs and tasks.
To @MemeBrains point, I don’t see this as a “fact-finding” mission. This is a business department (“working group”) that was allocated nearly half a million dollars. If they never received it, then the problem lies with those who disburse the funds, but there’s no point in having a group that doesn’t have the ability to get anything done, if that’s the case. Theoretically, this should go to a vote, as this is a DAO but, as this is a plutocracy in reality, it’s the will of the wealthy that will be done.
Just to clarify, SmartApe mentioned that the working group budget includes a personal compensation of $9000 per month per person - a staggering sum of money that would most certainly indicate serious full-time work with reporting requirements, and accountability to the community that pays for these salaries. However, your response indicates that no budget was provided. Just to clarify, have you and your colleagues in this working group been earning $9000 per month? To whom do you directly report? If you do not fufill the requirements of your employment, who has the immediate authority to either withhold monthly compensation or fire / censure anyone?
SmartAPE: popil:
Therefore, according to the AIP, from January to June, we executed tasks and implemented KPIs under zero budget and zero compensation. How can we implement the original plan without a budget? This is a strategic adjustment of pace. Moreover, in the end, we completed every project according to the initially set KPIs.
HI @popil, as per the above we are still waiting for the list of KPIs implemented. You indicated that those were done under zero budget and zero compensation - which is completely unacceptable.
However, in the interest of accountability and transparency, we would like to see/know what those KPIs were because they are integral to what steps (as per below) I take in light of this idea phase closing.
It gets extended as fact-finding continues
It gets withdrawn if responses are satisfactory
It goes to vote where the final deposition is up to the DAO
ToniVal: popil:
Hey， @SmartAPE , thanks for the reply. I believe that if you are still pursuing administrative and practical operations to raise your doubts in this situation, making political judgments alone is actually lacking consideration for the actual situation.
What “political judgements” are you talking about, @popil ?
@SmartAPE , like me, is concerned about the obvious lack of professionalism or planning of all the WGs, including MarComms.
To start with, I’d like to see this WG’s specific Marketing & Communications strategy and some metrics, including figures and hard data, about its impact, because in my perception it’s minimal to nil.
For instance, by way of example,
popil:
the ApeCoin x Alpine F1 video
…not sure if you mean this:?
ApeCoin DAO X BWT Alpine F1 team
Because if you mean this, budget or no budget, in my KPIs (and I come from the marketing & advertising world), after paying 5M EUROS to Alpine, and having Pierre Gasly on screen, getting less than 100 views in 3 months (let that sink, LESS-THAN-ONE-HUNDRED views IN THREE MONTHS with PIERRE GASLY ON SCREEN)…
…is absolutely unacceptable and there’s nothing “political” about it. In my company, a whole bunch of people would be fired for this.
So, let’s try to be professional here, OK? In order to evaluate if the MarComms WG is going to be useful or not, I’d need to read:
The WG’s strategic marketing & communications plan, and how it is intended to have some impact.
Figures and hard data about the impact both on W3 and W2 until now.
Thank you in advance.
popil:
I believe that if you are still pursuing administrative and practical operations to rai…
popil:
I believe that if you are still pursuing administrative and practical operations to raise your doubts in this situation, making political judgments alone is actually lacking consideration for the actual situation.
Sorry, but I didn’t understand any of that.
Are you saying that I shouldn’t question the operations?
Also, I don’t understand where “political” comes into this. Care to explain what you mean by that?
popil:
As I replied to you, and as is very clear in your reply, our working group has been operating under zero budget, enduring immense pressure.
Yes, I get that. And yes, that goes towards the performance issue that we’re discussing.
popil:
It wasn’t until July that we received the first installment of the AIP- 403 budget, and even that was a small amount to cover the costs of already advanced activities, video production, and brand guidelines. All of this was done under force majeure to complete and deliver the results.
I fail to see the relevance pertaining to gauging the performance and effectiveness of the WG.
Yes - you got voted into a [new] position that wasn’t funded. That’s not your fault, and nobody is blaming you for that.
ps. I believe that the use of force majeure is improper in this context. I believe you meant, voluntary.
popil:
More importantly, you seem to have overlooked the reality that every new working group has to go through the procedural challenges of establishing an LLC, all of which is handled in compliance with legal and DAO requirements.
I didn’t overlook that because it’s been the on-going theme here in the DAO.
That said, the positions aren’t permanent. And so, it stands to reason that each team being voted in would already have all their ducks in a row befitting the activities related to setting up operations. If you were waiting for funding from the Foundation in order to do all that, then it means that you applied for and got voted into a position that still has the same exact problems of inefficiency that some of us have been talking about for months now.
And FYI, I am well aware of the ramifications of such an inefficient setup that we have here in the DAO. Hence the reason that I wrote this proposal back in June to address it AIP- 465 : Alignment Of Working Group Terms And Budgets
popil:
Therefore, according to the AIP, from January to June, we executed tasks and implemented KPIs under zero budget and zero compensation. How can we implement the original plan without a budget? This is a strategic adjustment of pace. Moreover, in the end, we completed every project according to the initially set KPIs.
Yes, I fully understand the challenges and constraints.
Also, I have to ask again. What KPIs? You still haven’t outlined them. And thus far, I haven’t found a single thread here on Discourse that includes KPIs for MarComms. But what I did find are tasks and goals in the charter and which, as I mentioned above, the WG team hasn’t bothered to adhere to. Not even a little bit. The outlines in the charter aren’t suggestions. They’re a charter. And they come with transparency, performance and accountability metrics.
As I mentioned previously, this isn’t about blame, fault etc. It’s about transparency, accountability and funding. If the DAO is low on funds while spending money on programs that aren’t effective, those identified as such should be cut and defunded. This isn’t my money, and like most, I shouldn’t care what happens to it.
Regardless of all that, the fact remains that if the DAO remains inefficient, continues to throw money at grifts, inconsequential projects voted in by “friends and family” whales, inefficient programs, “no show” jobs etc., then it’s going to die quicker than current tracking says that it’s destined to. And amid all that, with ApeChain now the primary focus of revenue generation and which some of us are trying our best to help build, what happens to the DAO directly correlates to the success or failure of ApeChain.
Again, this isn’t personal. I just don’t see the value in this WG to the DAO. But again, the final decision isn’t up to me. The DAO whales are going to vote how they want - regardless of merit. And so, when the DAO finally runs out of money - as I am 99 % certain that as of this writing it already has in Q 3 / 24 - to the extent that it can’t pay for anything because ApeChain fees aren’t sufficient, that’s when everyone will probably start to pay attention. After the fact.
Stepping in to ask folks to center empathy and active listening in this discussion.
Some thoughts:
…
Stepping in to ask folks to center empathy and active listening in this discussion.
Some thoughts:
Whether you favor decentralization or not, the idea that operations should start to move under the Banana Bill or be removed altogether is both jarring and problematic. MarComms and community pods/working groups are often the backbone of ANY DAO. Further, It is imperative that working groups remain independent in order to prevent the usurping of power (real or perceived) and resources to institutional partners and small groups of community members.
Before suggesting such drastic measures such as cutting off a working group, There may be other methods of mediation before doing so and those should be explored before resorting to said measures posted here in this very forum.
a. Entering deeply intentional conversations with said working groups to discuss any challenges or pitfalls as well as their accomplishments thus far and exploring the spaces in which they may need assists or other resources to carry out work. Im happy to recommend facilitators if need be.
b. Pushing forth an INDEPENDENT audit of said working groups by an INDEPENDENT party (perhaps, metagov or others) that can surface evidence of said challenges and also highlight any of the milestones the working group has met AS WELL AS gather sentiment and anecdotal evidence of work via partners, DAO members and other adjacent parties. This information can then be used to better inform members of this DAO so they can make much more educated inquiries to this conversation
c. AFTER deep conversation, perhaps, readjusting salaries/rewards. However, this should be approached in a manner that honors the work and contributions
d. The MarComms crew can do an even better job at educating the DAO of what they are working on and the ongoing benefits of keeping this working group in tact. I like most people who do Marketing and/or community management work, often understand the immense amount of time and people and financial resources it takes to push forth impactful campaigns and build communities up in Web 3 AND outside of this technological bubble.
I have yet to see an outside agency or party come into a DAO and do better work than the people live, eat and breathe Insert DAO here. At the risk of cultural communication and the collapse of marketing campaigns because of agency to DAO disconnects (on multiple levels), I don’t advise hiring an outside party before TRYING to remedy any issues with the current working group. This is rather antagonistic and severely lacks empathy. Utilizing more holistic approaches to navigating challenges we may have is advised and THAT starts with intentional conversations.
Lastly, as I have said MANY times, there are many ways people participate in this DAO. Some people prefer Twitter, others Discord, some on this forum, etc. We need to figure out better ways of gathering and spawning DAO intelligence across platforms instead of resorting to tomato throwing because people choose to participate in spaces where the feel most comfortable, their access needs are met (including language), etc.
SmartAPE: nataliecrue:
Whether you favor decentralization or not, the idea that operations should start to move under the Banana Bill or be removed altogether is both jarring and problematic.
Yes - cost cutting measures are always problematic; but they are always a facet of running a profitable business.
To be clear, nothing in this proposal (or the other two) suggests that their ops should be moved to the Banana Bill. It’s not setup for that.
nataliecrue:
MarComms and community pods/working groups are often the backbone of ANY DAO.
Apparently our DAO didn’t think so, seeing as the group wasn’t formed in a timely fashion and had challenges getting off the ground.
nataliecrue:
Further, It is imperative that working groups remain independent in order to prevent the usurping of power (real or perceived) and resources to institutional partners and small groups of community members.
Agreed - that’s where the concept of teams and depts originate from.
nataliecrue:
Before suggesting such drastic measures such as cutting off a working group, There may be other methods of mediation before doing so and those should be explored before resorting to said measures posted here in this very forum.
Agreed. And that’s precisely the function that this discussion serves to do; and the final disposition is up to the DAO voters who created the WG in the first place, and thus have the power to dissolve it if they so choose.
nataliecrue:
a. Entering deeply intentional conversations with said working groups to discuss any challenges or pitfalls as well as their accomplishments thus far and exploring the spaces in which they may need assists or other resources to carry out work. Im happy to recommend facilitators if need be.
Agreed. And Popil has filled in some of those blanks. In fact, until I created this topic, very few had a clue about the MarComms activities. Which is precisely how she created a full page - less than 24 hrs ago - to outline those. Had the charter of the WG been followed as was originally written, there would have been an earlier picture. For e.g. while I am certainly familiar with her activities, some of what she outlined in her update were new to me.
nataliecrue:
b. Pushing forth an INDEPENDENT audit of said working groups by an INDEPENDENT party (perhaps, metagov or others) that can surface evidence of said challenges and also highlight any of the milestones the working group has met AS WELL AS gather sentiment and anecdotal evidence of work via partners, DAO members and other adjacent parties. This information can then be used to better inform members of this DAO so they can make much more educated inquiries to this conversation
Agreed. But, like everything else, we lack the structure here in the DAO. Heck, we don’t even have a structure setup for accountability and transparency because it is up to the individual WG stewards to engage or not - and there’s no feasible way for the DAO community to do anything about it because once elected into a position, there they remain until they are voted out. Hence the reason that I wrote this proposal AIP-469: Ape Foundation To Clarify Ability To Terminate Contracts. The incident problem is that, the nature of the community isn’t like one in a streamlined corp because we vote our friends into positions. And so, when it comes to transparency and accountability, nobody wants to say anything for fear of either offending their friends or rocking the apple cart. It’s one of the reasons why most DAOs have failed and the general consensus is that they simply don’t work.
nataliecrue:
c. AFTER deep conversation, perhaps, readjusting salaries/rewards. However, this should be approached in a manner that honors the work and contributions
Agreed. And therein lies the rub. Somehow, nobody finds an issue with a $9K per month, $108K per year job for a position that would normally pay half of that and with the same goals and responsibilities. And from my research into this, right from the start, they literally aligned that with the other WG - regardless of merit - then just rubber stamped it.
I mean, there was an entire public furor over even the Special Council salaries last year - and that made the news during which a lot of people were simply aghast. Then, back in Oct 2023, that eventually got revised somewhat. AIP-350: Shaping Success: Building a Stronger Future with new Special Council Pay. Prior to that, attempts to change it, failed due to the fact that the Ape Foundation said that would be in violation of contracts that it had signed with those contractors. There was a whole lotta noise about that particular fiasco over a year ago in June 2023 AIP-277: Re-evaluating ApeCoin DAO Special Council Salaries Structure.
nataliecrue:
d. The MarComms crew can do an even better job at educating the DAO of what they are working on and the ongoing benefits of keeping this working group in tact. I like most people who do Marketing and/or community management work, often understand the immense amount of time and people and financial resources it takes to push forth impactful campaigns and build communities up in Web3 AND outside of this technological bubble.
Agreed. I made a point of stressing this above. As I pointed out, had this thread not popped up, very few would even have a clue what MarComms where actually doing for the DAO.
nataliecrue:
I have yet to see an outside agency or party come into a DAO and do better work than the people live, eat and breathe Insert DAO here. At the risk of cultural communication and the collapse of marketing campaigns because of agency to DAO disconnects (on multiple levels), I don’t advise hiring an outside party before TRYING to remedy any issues with the current working group.
Agreed. And that’s specifically why I suggested above that even if this WG were dissolved, that she [Popil] could still work with external third-parties to come up with effective programs. An outside group isn’t going to understand the eclectic world-wide community enough to figure out the many nuances, alliances, key players, vibes etc.
nataliecrue:
This is rather antagonistic and severely lacks empathy. This is rather antagonistic and severely lacks empathy.
That’s subjective - and without merit because, rather than regard the entire situation as a collection of issues, it degrades the effort to one that emotes a personal attachment.
Nobody makes a [personal] decision to deny a grant, not renew a grant, defund a program, team etc. terminate a contract or fire an employee. No matter how people will try to reconcile personal feelings to said actions while ascribing them to malice, the decision usually comes down to cost cutting measures for whatever the situation presents. In my case, I made clear that aside from the fact that the DAO is out of money (which everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring), I have yet to see how that cost has benefited the DAO. And I will stress this again: that has very little to do with the WG stewards but more to do with the facts as laid out. It’s not my money. I don’t have any personal connection to the WG stewards. And there is no personal attachment to any of this.
nataliecrue:
Utilizing more holistic approaches to navigating challenges we may have is advised and THAT starts with intentional conversations.
You mean like starting a discussion (as per this thread) that basically says: “Hey, we’re out of money. So, what exactly are you spending $800K per year on, and why should we keep spending that?” After which, Popil subsequently getting wind of it, and races off to come up with an update explaining her activities?
The point that I am making there is, by design, this is a 7-day idea phase discussion. And so, the end result is one of these:
It gets extended as fact-finding continues
It gets withdrawn if responses are satisfactory
It goes to vote where the final deposition is up to the DAO
likkee.eth: SmartAPE doesn’t mean to deny the contribution, the hard time faced, the work done by Popil. It’s all about
SmartAPE:
It’s about transparency, accountability and funding. If the DAO is low on funds while spending money on programs that aren’t effective, those identified as such should be cut and defunded.
Furthermore, not everyone are working as hard as Popil does.
nataliecrue:
Whether you favor decentralization or not, the idea that operations should start …
nataliecrue:
Whether you favor decentralization or not, the idea that operations should start to move under the Banana Bill or be removed altogether is both jarring and problematic.
Yes - cost cutting measures are always problematic; but they are always a facet of running a profitable business.
To be clear, nothing in this proposal (or the other two) suggests that their ops should be moved to the Banana Bill. It’s not setup for that.
nataliecrue:
MarComms and community pods/working groups are often the backbone of ANY DAO.
Apparently our DAO didn’t think so, seeing as the group wasn’t formed in a timely fashion and had challenges getting off the ground.
nataliecrue:
Further, It is imperative that working groups remain independent in order to prevent the usurping of power (real or perceived) and resources to institutional partners and small groups of community members.
Agreed - that’s where the concept of teams and depts originate from.
nataliecrue:
Before suggesting such drastic measures such as cutting off a working group, There may be other methods of mediation before doing so and those should be explored before resorting to said measures posted here in this very forum.
Agreed. And that’s precisely the function that this discussion serves to do; and the final disposition is up to the DAO voters who created the WG in the first place, and thus have the power to dissolve it if they so choose.
nataliecrue:
a. Entering deeply intentional conversations with said working groups to discuss any challenges or pitfalls as well as their accomplishments thus far and exploring the spaces in which they may need assists or other resources to carry out work. Im happy to recommend facilitators if need be.
Agreed. And Popil has filled in some of those blanks. In fact, until I created this topic, very few had a clue about the MarComms activities. Which is precisely how she created a full page - less than 24 hrs ago - to outline those. Had the charter of the WG been followed as was originally written, there would have been an earlier picture. For e.g. while I am certainly familiar with her activities, some of what she outlined in her update were new to me.
nataliecrue:
b. Pushing forth an INDEPENDENT audit of said working groups by an INDEPENDENT party (perhaps, metagov or others) that can surface evidence of said challenges and also highlight any of the milestones the working group has met AS WELL AS gather sentiment and anecdotal evidence of work via partners, DAO members and other adjacent parties. This information can then be used to better inform members of this DAO so they can make much more educated inquiries to this conversation
Agreed. But, like everything else, we lack the structure here in the DAO. Heck, we don’t even have a structure setup for accountability and transparency because it is up to the individual WG stewards to engage or not - and there’s no feasible way for the DAO community to do anything about it because once elected into a position, there they remain until they are voted out. Hence the reason that I wrote this proposal AIP- 469 : Ape Foundation To Clarify Ability To Terminate Contracts. The incident problem is that, the nature of the community isn’t like one in a streamlined corp because we vote our friends into positions. And so, when it comes to transparency and accountability, nobody wants to say anything for fear of either offending their friends or rocking the apple cart. It’s one of the reasons why most DAOs have failed and the general consensus is that they simply don’t work.
nataliecrue:
c. AFTER deep conversation, perhaps, readjusting salaries/rewards. However, this should be approached in a manner that honors the work and contributions
Agreed. And therein lies the rub. Somehow, nobody finds an issue with a $ 9 K per month, $ 108 K per year job for a position that would normally pay half of that and with the same goals and responsibilities. And from my research into this, right from the start, they literally aligned that with the other WG - regardless of merit - then just rubber stamped it.
I mean, there was an entire public furor over even the Special Council salaries last year - and that made the news during which a lot of people were simply aghast. Then, back in Oct 2023 , that eventually got revised somewhat. AIP- 350 : Shaping Success: Building a Stronger Future with new Special Council Pay. Prior to that, attempts to change it, failed due to the fact that the Ape Foundation said that would be in violation of contracts that it had signed with those contractors. There was a whole lotta noise about that particular fiasco over a year ago in June 2023 AIP- 277 : Re-evaluating ApeCoin DAO Special Council Salaries Structure.
nataliecrue:
d. The MarComms crew can do an even better job at educating the DAO of what they are working on and the ongoing benefits of keeping this working group in tact. I like most people who do Marketing and/or community management work, often understand the immense amount of time and people and financial resources it takes to push forth impactful campaigns and build communities up in Web 3 AND outside of this technological bubble.
Agreed. I made a point of stressing this above. As I pointed out, had this thread not popped up, very few would even have a clue what MarComms where actually doing for the DAO.
nataliecrue:
I have yet to see an outside agency or party come into a DAO and do better work than the people live, eat and breathe Insert DAO here. At the risk of cultural communication and the collapse of marketing campaigns because of agency to DAO disconnects (on multiple levels), I don’t advise hiring an outside party before TRYING to remedy any issues with the current working group.
Agreed. And that’s specifically why I suggested above that even if this WG were dissolved, that she [Popil] could still work with external third-parties to come up with effective programs. An outside group isn’t going to understand the eclectic world-wide community enough to figure out the many nuances, alliances, key players, vibes etc.
nataliecrue:
This is rather antagonistic and severely lacks empathy. This is rather antagonistic and severely lacks empathy.
That’s subjective - and without merit because, rather than regard the entire situation as a collection of issues, it degrades the effort to one that emotes a personal attachment.
Nobody makes a [personal] decision to deny a grant, not renew a grant, defund a program, team etc. terminate a contract or fire an employee. No matter how people will try to reconcile personal feelings to said actions while ascribing them to malice, the decision usually comes down to cost cutting measures for whatever the situation presents. In my case, I made clear that aside from the fact that the DAO is out of money (which everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring), I have yet to see how that cost has benefited the DAO. And I will stress this again: that has very little to do with the WG stewards but more to do with the facts as laid out. It’s not my money. I don’t have any personal connection to the WG stewards. And there is no personal attachment to any of this.
nataliecrue:
Utilizing more holistic approaches to navigating challenges we may have is advised and THAT starts with intentional conversations.
You mean like starting a discussion (as per this thread) that basically says: “Hey, we’re out of money. So, what exactly are you spending $ 800 K per year on, and why should we keep spending that?” After which, Popil subsequently getting wind of it, and races off to come up with an update explaining her activities?
The point that I am making there is, by design, this is a 7 -day idea phase discussion. And so, the end result is one of these:
It gets extended as fact-finding continues
It gets withdrawn if responses are satisfactory
It goes to vote where the final deposition is up to the DAO
MemeBrains: Catching up on this whole thread above, good comments by a lot of people, shoutouts to @PhilWatkins (happy belated bday!!) and @nataliecrue for chiming in as they have, to @popil for producing the recent report and working without budget for quite some time, and to @SmartAPE for having posted this thread in the first place for us to all discuss and move forward positively from.
I feel very engaged by the discussion above and agree with a lotta points by many of the contributors.
I feel it’s both relevant and ethically correct for me to share that Popil was quite helpful with the launch of Public Bored at ETH Denver. She didn’t include this in her report so I’ll share; She went far out of her way to coordinate engagement and reach with Made by Ape Brands. Over a dozen of them listened to her outreach and actively engaged with the Public Bored as a direct result of her support. She did outreach with them, communicated the Public Bored activation in Denver, coordinated a Space for the topic, created her own intake form to accept art, gave me detailed specs on the correct use and application of the ApeCoin logo and some of the complexities of having Yuga and ApeCoin on the same branding, and then also put me directly in touch with some of them as well.
At the end of the day, my top priority is aligned with most people here, that of seeing a successful, decentralized, and sustainable DAO. And to that effect, the successful launch of ApeChain seems to be where our fate resides.
Any concerns I may have from the past can all be relieved by seeing ApeChain launch successfully, and by seeing all parties within all WGs unite together on that front in a clear and concise manner. I currently do not have proper clarity on the degree that this may or may not be happening. Perhaps there is a thread, report, plan or otherwise someone could point me to on this regard, or even by way of a response.
Moving forward, which direction are you currently feeling inclined to proceed with, between those 3 general options you outlined?
SmartAPE:
It gets extended as fact-finding continues
It gets withdrawn if responses are satisfactory
It goes to vote where the final deposition is up to the DAO
SmartAPE doesn’t mean to deny the contribution, the hard time faced, the work done by Popil. It’s a…
SmartAPE doesn’t mean to deny the contribution, the hard time faced, the work done by Popil. It’s all about
SmartAPE:
It’s about transparency, accountability and funding. If the DAO is low on funds while spending money on programs that aren’t effective, those identified as such should be cut and defunded.
Furthermore, not everyone are working as hard as Popil does.
Catching up on this whole thread above, good comments by a lot of people, shoutouts to @PhilWatkins…
Catching up on this whole thread above, good comments by a lot of people, shoutouts to @PhilWatkins (happy belated bday!!) and @nataliecrue for chiming in as they have, to @popil for producing the recent report and working without budget for quite some time, and to @SmartAPE for having posted this thread in the first place for us to all discuss and move forward positively from.
I feel very engaged by the discussion above and agree with a lotta points by many of the contributors.
I feel it’s both relevant and ethically correct for me to share that Popil was quite helpful with the launch of Public Bored at ETH Denver. She didn’t include this in her report so I’ll share; She went far out of her way to coordinate engagement and reach with Made by Ape Brands. Over a dozen of them listened to her outreach and actively engaged with the Public Bored as a direct result of her support. She did outreach with them, communicated the Public Bored activation in Denver, coordinated a Space for the topic, created her own intake form to accept art, gave me detailed specs on the correct use and application of the ApeCoin logo and some of the complexities of having Yuga and ApeCoin on the same branding, and then also put me directly in touch with some of them as well.
At the end of the day, my top priority is aligned with most people here, that of seeing a successful, decentralized, and sustainable DAO. And to that effect, the successful launch of ApeChain seems to be where our fate resides.
Any concerns I may have from the past can all be relieved by seeing ApeChain launch successfully, and by seeing all parties within all WGs unite together on that front in a clear and concise manner. I currently do not have proper clarity on the degree that this may or may not be happening. Perhaps there is a thread, report, plan or otherwise someone could point me to on this regard, or even by way of a response.
Moving forward, which direction are you currently feeling inclined to proceed with, between those 3 general options you outlined?
SmartAPE:
It gets extended as fact-finding continues
It gets withdrawn if responses are satisfactory
It goes to vote where the final deposition is up to the DAO
SmartAPE: MemeBrains:
Any concerns I may have from the past can all be relieved by seeing ApeChain launch successfully, and by seeing all parties within all WGs unite together on that front in a clear and concise manner. I currently do not have proper clarity on the degree that this may or may not be happening. Perhaps there is a thread, report, plan or otherwise someone could point me to on this regard, or even by way of a response.
The only thread is this one. Thus far, nothing to report. Implementation Update | AIP-454: The BANANA Bill: Apes Gotta Eat
MemeBrains:
Moving forward, which direction are you currently feeling inclined to proceed with, between those 3 general options you outlined?
At this moment, I am still undecided.
The issue that I am having difficulty reconciling is that, of the two current WG stewards, Popil appears to be the only active one. The other guy is basically a no show. And we have a 3rd MarComms steward on the way.
furiousanger: MemeBrains:
At the end of the day, my top priority is aligned with most people here, that of seeing a successful, decentralized, and sustainable DAO. And to that effect, the successful launch of ApeChain seems to be where our fate resides.
Hi mate,
Agree with the first part, but the last sentence “Apechain seems to be where our fate resides” for me is totally wrong and I’ll explain why.
Apechain like staking is just another idea the DAO has funded. Our mission - push web3 forward by funding what’s next - that shouldn’t end or be marked as complete. So linking the fate of the DAO to an idea, no matter how monumental it appears or large the funding amount, seems limiting to me.
Staking was 175m, many see this as a total waste of money, and they argue it’s what got us to $0.70c and value 98% down. However, the DAO still carries on.
I think apechain will certainly see many users (new and old), lots of hype, and tonnes of use cases at first (just like most new chains enjoy), and ofc I’ll be there fully supporting always. But will apechain continue to thrive over thousands of other chains long-term? Who knows - I hope so - but we should never be willing to bet the future of the DAO on an idea’s outcome.
Tl;dr - let’s not get too mixed up, intertwined and dependent on one idea we’ve funded. We’ll hopefully fund many more hundreds and possibly thousands of ideas. Clear separation is always needed imo. Focusing on how we benefit from the successful ideas we fund, and not relying on them for our future, is how we should be moving forward - ensuring we achieve “a successful, decentralized, and sustainable DAO.”
Thanks.
MemeBrains:
Any concerns I may have from the past can all be relieved by seeing ApeChain launc…
MemeBrains:
Any concerns I may have from the past can all be relieved by seeing ApeChain launch successfully, and by seeing all parties within all WGs unite together on that front in a clear and concise manner. I currently do not have proper clarity on the degree that this may or may not be happening. Perhaps there is a thread, report, plan or otherwise someone could point me to on this regard, or even by way of a response.
The only thread is this one. Thus far, nothing to report. Implementation Update | AIP- 454 : The BANANA Bill: Apes Gotta Eat
MemeBrains:
Moving forward, which direction are you currently feeling inclined to proceed with, between those 3 general options you outlined?
At this moment, I am still undecided.
The issue that I am having difficulty reconciling is that, of the two current WG stewards, Popil appears to be the only active one. The other guy is basically a no show. And we have a 3 rd MarComms steward on the way.
SmartAPE:
Popil appears to be the only active one. The other guy is basically a no show. And w…
SmartAPE:
Popil appears to be the only active one. The other guy is basically a no show. And we have a 3 rd MarComms steward on the way.
To clarify:
Joining time of Stewards
The third Steward for Marcomm joined after the last election. @Yumi
The third Steward for Metaverse joined after the last election. @PhilWatkins
Both Web 3 Stewards joined after the last election. @romantik @Johnny_ 2
Compensation
They have all not only not received compensation, also it is not guaranteed they will as it is dependent on a new AIP for their respective Working Groups to pass. They have all included the back payment request from when they were elected in their AIPs.
The third Steward for GWG joined after the last election. @DeSmart
The GWG put the first 3 months of third Steward into our AIP- 408 Budget so this role has been compensated.
Working Group Charters and WG Budgets
Budgets
GWG offered unsecured loans to Metaverse and Marketing WGs to get their legal structure setup, which have since been repaid.
Once AIP was passed Marcomms did not receive the funds yet, but they did know they had an approved budget with funds coming. This meant they could work, but it of course impacted them as they had no budget (outside of knowing they will have the compensation back in arrears for their Steward role).
This was a similar situation with Metaverse WG.
GWG we needed to get the funds from AIP- 408 to be able to role out the Initiatives, such as Ape U, Small Grants, Delegate Accelerator and others. So I can understand the challenges the new Working Groups had.
WG Charters
I think a more important point is what is the core focus of those Working Groups and what are their specific OKRs. Also do the OKRs in their budget match and/or exceed the OKRs in their charter. If not why? Does the charter need amendments? or does their budget request need them? or both. I am thinking about this now as it is one of our OKRs. The Stewards of each group are aware and also thinking about these important questions.
@SmartAPE you are very detail oriented and if you would like to help, send me a DM via the forum with issues you see in the current charters, so I can consider them and see how to improve them in updated Charters.
bigbull: I am sharing from AIP-239:
AIP-239: Working Group Guidelines & The Governance Working Group Charter
Dissolution of Working Groups
A Working Group can be dissolved or removed by passing a Process Proposal requesting the dissolution or removal of a Working Group.
Upon the dissolution of a Working Group, any and all unspent Working Group funds from that Working Group, at the time of dissolution, must be immediately returned to the DAO.
Interesting the previous AIP sent for reconstruction, one of the requests was:
AIP-466: Proposal To Close Non-Essential Working Groups
Please remove any references to clawbacks from the resubmissions.
Some thought should go into this. I think that leaving it in might lead to unwise spending from the potentially impacted working groups. Also the statement should be updated as unspent vs having liabilities is not the same thing.
SmartAPE: Thanks for the clarifications in all those areas because I am certain that most people don’t even have any idea about what is actually going on.
While I am aware of the above, my [core] point about MarComms was geared towards Popil (who is active, present, has done work etc) and Linstro (who, for all intent and purposes, is still a no show). They were both elected at the same time.
bigbull:
They have all not only not received compensation, also it is not guaranteed they will as it is dependent on a new AIP for their respective Working Groups to pass. They have all included the back payment request from when they were elected in their AIPs.
Yup. Yet another example of how utterly inefficiently this whole thing is. Hence my attempt to hopefully fix it via AIP-465: Alignment Of Working Group Terms And Budgets and AIP-467: Proposal To Revise Special Council & WG Stewards Term Limits
bigbull:
I think a more important point is what is the core focus of those Working Groups and what are their specific OKRs. Also do the OKRs in their budget match and/or exceed the OKRs in their charter. If not why? Does the charter need amendments? or does their budget request need them? or both. I am thinking about this now as it is one of our OKRs. The Stewards of each group are aware and also thinking about these important questions.
But more to the point, OKRs and KPIs are useless unless they are adhered to and are enforceable. Due to the fact that all WGs are, for all intent and purposes, their own self-contained nation states (yay! decentralization - not really), there tends to be very little transparency and accountability.
And due to the nature of the political appointments, I don’t believe that even the Special Council has the standing (or do they?) to take action if a particular WG steward fails to adhere to charters, goals etc. It’s why I wrote this proposal to get clarity on that AIP-469: Ape Foundation To Clarify Ability To Terminate Contracts because we have to be able to take action without having to go through a proposal route which is likely to fail at vote when the people we are trying to eject, get their friends ensure that it fails to pass.
Aside from the fact that the DAO leadership acts on a buddy system whereby when our friends aren’t holding up their end of the deal, the default position is to look the other way. And it’s precisely why I had long held that the GwG being the only WG that has actually done more for the community, that we seemingly have no basis to create more bureaucracy with all these other WGs. I wrote this AIP-358: Ape Assembly Restructuring For Independence proposal back in Oct specifically to address this issue; but the Ape Assembly was subsequently closed, I ate a three-month ban over the Polygon/ApeChain fiasco, and even though it expired in Feb, I decided not to return because, like most (several have since left), I had grown tired of all the on-going nonsense and failings. Only ApeChain brought me back once I saw a glimmer of hope for the prosperity of our DAO and how I could make a significant difference.
There is no prosperity without transparency and accountability. None. And yet still, though I am all but certain that everyone who is active in this DAO knows this, they are silent because, aside from it always being someone else’s problem, nobody wants to rock “da club’s” apple cart, let alone speak up and be singled out. And most of us who do complain and moan publicly and privately, aren’t alone. This was Garga back on May 25th echoing the very same sentiments that he has expressed to others (we have a few people in common).
Excerpt:
"*So far the only way for ApeCoin holders to express themselves has been the DAO, in straight up governance. There’s been a lot of messy ***. The stuff that democracy and lack of vision will engender.
DAO ended up with all the negative parts of decentralization, and almost none of the positives, like permissionless building. "
Yet, here I am, once again (AIP-358 was the first attempt), talking about closing three largely ineffective WGs which are costing the DAO money, the stewards have treated the charter, KPIs and OKRs like mere suggestions, and to the extent that as per this incident MarComms WG, one of two stewards is literally a no show. But somehow, this is all perfectly OK because it’s not our personal money, it’s always someone else’s problem, and most Apes seemingly have no concept of transparency or accountability - yet wonder why “number not go up” anywhere.
But yeah, ApeChain is totally going to fix everything, we’re going to make a lot of money and the treasury is totally going back from $100M to $1.4B. Totally.
I don’t care what anyone says, the DAO is the core of the community as that’s why it was created in the first place. Not Twitter. Not the RL events where it’s always the same faces in the churn, not your PFP. Go read the apecoin.com about page for a refresher course.
If the DAO - that being us, right here - continues to be seen as this listless entity and for which it continuously faces derision and disdain - it’s simply because we haven’t done a very good job; even as we watch both the treasury and the token race to zero. There, I’ve said it.
bigbull:
you are very detail oriented and if you would like to help, send me a DM via the forum with issues you see in the current charters, so I can consider them and see how to improve them in updated Charters.
Thanks, but I view that as a waste of both our times because there’s literally nothing that either one of us can say, write or do without transparency and accountability. I’d rather be publicly voicing my opinions so that they are retained for the DAO record. Regardless, as you well know, I am always happy to help wherever I can.
ps. I believe that we should close these three WGs and then the GwG, like they did with the secretary, can move Popil or any other person of their own choosing, under their purview as the marketing person. Then they can have her work with third-party teams/firms to come up with a robust and effective marketing plan for the DAO. But these three WGs have no reason or basis to exist.
